As hubs are not replacing the relationship between affiliates and affcom, hubs purpose is to serve its community across multiple countries.  I can see the value in Affcom sharing some of its experiences but I caution against the building of deeper power structures that widen the gap between individual contributors, the BOT, and the WMF.   That gap will get even wider once the global council is put in place, there are already significant communication problems, made worse by the lack of project experience within the WMF staff, its contractors, and the BOT For many years these hubs have successfully existed outside Affcom control, I think there should be greater respect shown to hubs for that work treating hubs as pilots is itself disrespectful. Outside of Europe where EU law allows cross border responsibility, hubs governance structures face considerable legal hurdles from insurance to individuals being required to make themselves subject to the laws of another jurisdiction to hold a position of responsibility. <edit conflict with Ilario Valdelli> This discussion should be naturally a discussion done by the community and not by the Affcom itself, naturally, like it's happening for the whole strategy. I wholeheartedly support this point, these discussions need to run independent Affcom. On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 at 16:34, Philip Kopetzky &lt;philip.kopetzky(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi Wojciech, thanks for this statement, it will definitely be helpful to have AffCom's insights into the current affiliates network when talking about hubs. While approval by the WMF BoT is one option, wouldn't that require a hub to be a formal organisation? Otherwise the BoT would be involved in micro-managing project grants that are funding some of the hub pilots. It would also be helpful to design the process in a way that has the Global Council in mind where in its absence the WMF BoT acts in its absence, to make clear that this is only a temporary solution because of how slow progress on the movement charter has been in the last two years. Best, Philip On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 20:54, Wojciech Pędzich &lt;wpedzich(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: During the strategic meeting of the Affiliations Committee (AffCom) in Paris on June 24-26, members discussed how AffCom may be able to support the movement in relation to the upcoming Hubs pilot process. We reviewed two issues – whether it was within AffCom’s remit to contribute to the Hub pilot process and if so, what our involvement might look like. AffCom has, since its inception in 2004, worked directly with all Affiliates across the movement, i.e.: User Groups, Chapters, and Thematic Organizations. Our role, as it has evolved, is to support these different entities as they come into being and then as they grow, ensure that they integrate best practices and with a view to long-term sustainability. This has provided AffCom with both a broad overview, as well as a deep understanding, of the various challenges faced by affiliates across a range of circumstances that include socio-cultural issues and affiliate-based conflicts. Hubs are intended to function as formal movement bodies constituted by existing groups and/or affiliates, able to  use Wikimedia trademarks to present their association. They will need to be independent, legally constituted Affiliates, recognised by the Board of Trustees. This introduces a significant and exciting new Affiliate model to our movement and AffCom would welcome the opportunity to bring our institutional knowledge and experience to assist in their development. Recognising the principles of subsidiarity, the committee would like to offer its support as an advisory body for the Hubs piloting process, working with the community to develop a process that will lead, ultimately, to their approval by the WMF Board of Trustees. Wojciech Pędzich on behalf of AffCom _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org -- GN. // _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list --wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives athttps://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.o… To unsubscribe send an email towikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Dear all, AffCom’s response here is to a specific Hub pilot project, not necessarily the long-term future of Hubs, and hence the initial statement published on July 11. AffCom is comprised of a body of volunteers from across the Movement who have joined the Committee from various projects and who have a wide range of experience across opportunities and challenges when Wikimedia groups gather and formalize. We do not see the situation in which Hubs are emerging as any threat to the communities that already exist. Hubs, in their structure, can be seen as a variety of affiliates who are gathering together to create something new. In this manner, AffCom is definitely in a position to help Hubs grow and prosper. While structures similar to the current discussion on Hubs have previously existed, there is an advantage in having Hubs work officially as structures similar to Affiliates, and this is where the word “pilot” comes in. This is intended to indicate the beginning of having Hubs as established structures with the current infrastructure of communities that already exists. Kind regards Wojciech, on behalf of AffCom W dniu 12.07.2022 o 11:13, Gnangarra pisze: As hubs are not replacing the relationship between affiliates and affcom, hubs purpose is to serve its community across multiple countries. I can see the value in Affcom sharing some of its experiences but I caution against the building of deeper power structures that widen the gap between individual contributors, the BOT, and the WMF. That gap will get even wider once the global council is put in place, there are already significant communication problems, made worse by the lack of project experience within the WMF staff, its contractors, and the BOT For many years these hubs have successfully existed outside Affcom control, I think there should be greater respect shown to hubs for that work treating hubs as pilots is itself disrespectful. Outside of Europe where EU law allows cross border responsibility, hubs governance structures face considerable legal hurdles from insurance to individuals being required to make themselves subject to the laws of another jurisdiction to hold a position of responsibility. <edit conflict with Ilario Valdelli> I wholeheartedly support this point, these discussions need to run independent Affcom. On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 at 16:34, Philip Kopetzky &lt;philip.kopetzky(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- GN. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org