Re: [Wikimedia-l] No internet censorship in Hong Kong

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Deryck Chan

10 May 2012 10 May '12

10:39 p.m.

Dear all, It has come to the attention of the Wikimania 2013 Hong Kong organizing team that there may be confusion over the situation of internet censorship in China and whether it affects Hong Kong. [1] We would like to clarify that, although Hong Kong has been nominally part of the People's Republic of China since 1997, the city-state of Hong Kong retains complete independence over civilian affairs. This, of course, means that internet regulation in Hong Kong is completely separate from that of Mainland China, and therefore internet censorship in Mainland China (the "Great Firewall of China", [2]) does not apply to Hong Kong. We would like to reassure all Wikimedians, especially those considering to attend Wikimania 2013, that *Wikipedia has never been censored in Hong Kong*. Visitors to Hong Kong will enjoy, among other things such as exuberant local cuisine and efficient public transport, uncensored internet connection and unhindered access to Wikimedia projects. We hope to see you all at Wikimania 2012 in Washington DC and Wikimania 2013 in Hong Kong. With best wishes, Deryck Chan Global engagement coordinator Wikimania 2013 organizing team / Wikimedia Hong Kong [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-05-07/N… [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall (cross-posted to wikimania-l, internal-l and wikimedia-l)

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Todd Allen

10 May 10 May

11:27 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)wikimedia.hk> wrote:

...

It is still disgraceful that WMF, an organization supposedly devoted to free information, is implicitly supporting a regime that routinely and as a matter of policy refuses free information flow to its citizens. Hong Kong in particular may not do that, but Hong Kong is part of China, and China does. China will receive money from this event. Perhaps Google and the like are concerned only with profit and will do business in China regardless of ethical considerations, but WMF is a nonprofit dedicated to the exact opposite of China's policies, and should refuse to provide any monetary support for China until and unless China removes all censorship from its population. The fact that it has failed to do so, and is indeed implicitly supporting China, has me strongly reconsidering both my editorial and monetary support. -- Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.

Mingli Yuan

11:43 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

Hi, Todd and all, I don't think WMF support any regime implicitly which censor the online speech. I am from Mainland China, I hate the censorship, I had did some small steps to against it just as lots of our friends on Chinese Wikipedia. The only thing I want to talk is that small changes are taking place in the country, and the access of Wikimedia projects inside China will help the process. Be confident for the young people here. Regards, Mingli On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)wikimedia.hk> wrote:

Dear all, It has come to the attention of the Wikimania 2013 Hong Kong organizing team that there may be confusion over the situation of internet

censorship

in China and whether it affects Hong Kong. [1] We would like to clarify that, although Hong Kong has been nominally part of the People's Republic of China since 1997, the city-state of Hong Kong retains complete independence over civilian affairs. This, of course,

means

that internet regulation in Hong Kong is completely separate from that of Mainland China, and therefore internet censorship in Mainland China (the "Great Firewall of China", [2]) does not apply to Hong Kong. We would like to reassure all Wikimedians, especially those considering

attend Wikimania 2013, that *Wikipedia has never been censored in Hong

Kong*.

Visitors to Hong Kong will enjoy, among other things such as exuberant local cuisine and efficient public transport, uncensored internet connection and unhindered access to Wikimedia projects. We hope to see you all at Wikimania 2012 in Washington DC and Wikimania 2013 in Hong Kong. With best wishes, Deryck Chan Global engagement coordinator Wikimania 2013 organizing team / Wikimedia Hong Kong [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-05-07/N…

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall (cross-posted to wikimania-l, internal-l and wikimedia-l) _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Deryck Chan

11:44 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

Todd, I'm afraid you've mistaken. Hong Kong is fiscally independent from the rest of China, and not a single cent of the Hong Kong government's income is passed on to the PRC government in Beijing. Deryck On 10 May 2012 22:27, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)wikimedia.hk> wrote:

Dear all, It has come to the attention of the Wikimania 2013 Hong Kong organizing team that there may be confusion over the situation of internet

censorship

means

attend Wikimania 2013, that *Wikipedia has never been censored in Hong

Kong*.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-05-07/N…

Nathan

11:49 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

This is a similar argument to those made against Egypt or Israel etc. It's a facile and false notion that holding Wikimania in a particular city is an implicit political endorsement for the national government of the host city. You could just as easily interpret it in the opposite manner - holding a Wikimania event in Egypt, Israel, China, the U.S. or elsewhere supports knowledge liberalism and draws attention to the mission of the WMF in the areas where it may be most poignant. More likely, the decision of where to hold the event is made independent of political concerns and the WMF, as well as the host Wikimedians, take no political positions implicit or otherwise. ~Nathan

Itzik Edri

11 May 11 May

12:25 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

+1. I totally agree with Nathan. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:49 AM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

James Alexander

12:46 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

It does, at least at some level, seem to be an argument (usually from different people) every Wikimania. There just isn't a way to have it in a place that everyone is happy with (especially if you want to rotate around the world. I'd also point remind people that among all of the places Wikimania has been it's also been in Taiwan in 07. It has seemed to be much better to do the selection non-politically (while not being shy about who we are and what we believe). James On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Itzik Edri <itzik(a)infra.co.il> wrote:

...

+1. I totally agree with Nathan. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:49 AM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This is a similar argument to those made against Egypt or Israel etc.

It's

a facile and false notion that holding Wikimania in a particular city is

implicit political endorsement for the national government of the host city. You could just as easily interpret it in the opposite manner - holding a Wikimania event in Egypt, Israel, China, the U.S. or elsewhere supports knowledge liberalism and draws attention to the mission of the

WMF

in the areas where it may be most poignant. More likely, the decision of where to hold the event is made independent of political concerns and the WMF, as well as the host Wikimedians, take no political positions

implicit

or otherwise. ~Nathan _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Richard Symonds

1:07 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

I must admit I had concerns, but they're allayed considerably by the statement that HK is fiscally independent from the PRC. Hopefully having such a free event in an area of the world where freedom of information is in relatively short supply will do wonderful things for the movement and the world! Thank you to WMHK for clarifying things. Richard Symonds On May 10, 2012 11:47 PM, "James Alexander" <jamesofur(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

+1. I totally agree with Nathan. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:49 AM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This is a similar argument to those made against Egypt or Israel etc.

It's > a facile and false notion that holding Wikimania in a particular city

an > implicit political endorsement for the national government of the host > city. You could just as easily interpret it in the opposite manner - > holding a Wikimania event in Egypt, Israel, China, the U.S. or

elsewhere

supports knowledge liberalism and draws attention to the mission of the

WMF > in the areas where it may be most poignant. More likely, the decision

> where to hold the event is made independent of political concerns and

the

WMF, as well as the host Wikimedians, take no political positions

implicit

or otherwise. ~Nathan _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Kim Bruning

10:16 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:46:20PM -0700, James Alexander wrote:

...

Right. My concern about Israel was that almost no one from the surrounding area would be able to visit. (This turned out to be accurate, but it was too late to fix). Will many people from surrounding countries be able to visit .hk without problems? If so, that should be ok then. That and I'm looking forward to visiting a place with sane border customs practices for a change ;-) sincerely, kim Bruning

Katie Chan

11:53 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On 11/05/2012 21:16, Kim Bruning wrote:

...

While pretty much every countries from Europe, N&S America & Australasia are visa free according to the bid page, a lot of Asian and Middle Eastern countries would require visa. Even those places from where visa would be required, they should be okay I believe. Ironically, the only exception to that is if the person is from mainland China (PRC). KTC -- Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine

Deryck Chan

12 May 12 May

12:08 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

Not a problem. Many east and south-east Asian countries' citizens enjoy visa-free access to Hong Kong ( http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HK_Visa_Policy.png ). Visa-on-demand for business or leisure travel is also available for residents of most major cities in mainland China and all of Guangdong province (the province surrounding Hong Kong). Application needs to be done prior to travel, but rejections of such visa is unheard of in the last few years. I have relatives from Guangzhou who visit Hong Kong regularly on these visas and they've never had a problem :) That said, more complex procedures are needed for people from rural areas of mainland China to visit Hong Kong. With our working partnerships in the Meeting and Exhibition Office in the government, we endeavour to ensure that every registered attendee of Wikimania 2013 gets the visa assistance they need. There are special visa for residents of Taiwan to visit Hong Kong. Other than a few extraordinary cases involving high-profile controversial politicians, rejection of such visa is also unheard of. Deryck On 11 May 2012 22:53, Katie Chan <ktc(a)ktchan.info> wrote:

...

On 11/05/2012 21:16, Kim Bruning wrote: Right. My concern about Israel was that almost no one from the

surrounding area would be able to visit. (This turned out to be accurate, but it was too late to fix). Will many people from surrounding countries be able to visit .hk without problems? If so, that should be ok then. That and I'm looking forward to visiting a place with sane border customs practices for a change ;-)

...

KTC -- Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine ______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists…

Tom Morris

11 May 11 May

1:14 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On Thursday, 10 May 2012 at 22:49, Nathan wrote:

...

As one of the people who worked on and supported the London bid, I agree. I would hope that if London had got it, people wouldn't have inferred support for the UK's planned internet censorship regime (or, indeed, the Digital Economy Act, the enormous and growing gap between the rich and poor, the presence of unelected clerics in our legislature—a trait we share only with Iran, our government's horrible mistreatment of disabled people, the lack of full civil equality for LGBT citizens, indoctrination in religious schools, our terrible libel laws, or seventeen other issues I can and do get angry about very frequently). Spending a week or so in a country for a conference is not the same as living there, becoming a citizen, pledging allegiance to the flag or the Queen or the Party or whatever. In the bidding process, there rightly are some minimum standards, specifically with regards to freedom of speech laws and whether or not the cities in question are welcoming to religious and LGBT minorities. If we wish to include anti-censorship as one of those requirements, it'd be worth knowing that up-front so Wikimedians who wish to bid in the future can take that into account rather than have it brought up after the bidding process is complete. -- Tom Morris <http://tommorris.org/>

Katie Chan

2:23 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On 11/05/2012 00:14, Tom Morris wrote:

...

In the bidding process, there rightly are some minimum standards, specifically with regards to freedom of speech laws and whether or not the cities in question are welcoming to religious and LGBT minorities. If we wish to include anti-censorship as one of those requirements, it'd be worth knowing that up-front so Wikimedians who wish to bid in the future can take that into account rather than have it brought up after the bidding process is complete.

If the community want to include anti-censorship (and or numerous other possible complaints) as one of the requirements, then good luck finding any city in the world to host Wikimania. On 11/05/2012 00:07, Richard Symonds wrote:

...

Or one can just read [[Special administrative region]] (among other related articles) and see "Currently, the two SARs of Hong Kong and Macau are responsible for all issues except diplomatic relations and national defence." If people have a problem with one of the most multi-ethnic, multicultural & number 1 ranked index of economic freedom place in the world with constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech and press, then I give up......... KTC -- Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine

Anirudh Bhati

10:39 a.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Katie Chan <ktc(a)ktchan.info> wrote:

...

If people have a problem with one of the most multi-ethnic, multicultural & number 1 ranked index of economic freedom place in the world with constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech and press, then I give up.........

+1 Hong Kong is as free as it gets. :) anirudh

Kim Bruning

10:10 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 01:23:58AM +0100, Katie Chan wrote:

...

On 11/05/2012 00:14, Tom Morris wrote:

If the community want to include anti-censorship (and or numerous other possible complaints) as one of the requirements, then good luck finding any city in the world to host Wikimania.

Rejkyavik? :-) sincerely, Kim Bruning

David Gerard

11:31 p.m.

New subject: No internet censorship in Hong Kong

On 11 May 2012 21:10, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:

...

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 01:23:58AM +0100, Katie Chan wrote:

...

> If the community want to include anti-censorship (and or numerous other > possible complaints) as one of the requirements, then good luck finding > any city in the world to host Wikimania.

...

Rejkyavik? :-)

+1 - where's the Icelandic bid! - d.

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15 comments

12 participants

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participants (12)

Anirudh Bhati
David Gerard
Deryck Chan
Itzik Edri
James Alexander
Katie Chan
Kim Bruning
Mingli Yuan
Nathan
Richard Symonds
Todd Allen
Tom Morris