But if people who think that the 2+1-rule is questionable with good
arguments can't come to the conference because of the 2+1 rule the whole
thing becomes a bit difficult. Not everybody is keen on discussing such
things on mailinglists, especially when the decisions aren't made on such
lists, but on the conference itself.
I for my case really would have liked to come, mainly for listening live to
the discussions and get to know some people from other chapters. And as I
this year live in the city where the conference takes place, it would have
been possible with very few costs, too.
I really would like to see this aspect of the rules to be discussed on this
year's event because I also think that more people will represent the
bigger variety of the movement and still don't boost the event to a
happening where no serious discussion and fair international
decision-finding can be made because of overcrowding or overrepresentation
of some chapters.
Have a nice time in Berlin, maybe I will drop by on some of the evening
events at least. :)
Best regards
Jens
2014-04-02 13:37 GMT+02:00 Itzik Edri <itzik(a)infra.co.il>il>:
I less think this is question of budget (also, and
I'm one of the big
criticizers of the movement travels expenses), and rather the question of
the concept of the conference.
Yes, people can achieve a lot from attending in conferences - and we don't
limit the number of people who can come to Wikimania, but ChapConf is not
Wikimania. It's another concept of conference, that happens every year with
the same formula of representatives. If people think we need to change it,
due the changes the movement passed over the past years, it's totally OK
and we are welcome to do so - but we should speak about it - together, no
by one side decision that haven't been notified to no one, at least no
publicly.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Steve Zhang <cro0016(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gerard,
My email is not to criticise the decision WMUK made to send more than the
majority of chapters, but to make my view (as I was asked off list my
view, and I think given the discussion it was worth sharing on-list) that
regardless of whether the funds a chapter or organisation has at it's
disposable are infinitely small or infinitely limitless, the same thought
process should be gone through when planning expenditure. Spend each
$1,000
like it's your last, essentially, consider if
what it's planned to be
spent
on is the best value, and whether there would be
more value in spending
it
on another project/item. When thats the case,
then consider whether the
original proposed spending is worth it.
I recognise this hardly a universal view, nor do I expect others to
replace
their view with mine. It's not my place to
question the actions of board
members of other chapters, nor will I do so, but like others I felt that
now was an appropriate time to convey my point of view on spending in
general, and I have now done so.
Looking forward to seeing all of you in Berlin :)
Steve
On 2 April 2014 21:54, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hoi,
> There is a big difference between being frugal and being effective.
There
is no
point to underspend when it affects effectivity in a negative
manner.
> Yes, it is important that people are mindful of the sources of the
money
> involved. This is as important for us as it
is for a government where
the
donations
are not given voluntary. More important as it is hardly
possible
> to get an accounting from "civil" servants and we rely every year on
> donations.
>
> When one chapter has a budget and a plan, it is for them to exercise
that
plan.
When another chapter or people in another chapter disagree, they
can
> say so. However, the argument for a large delegation has been made. One
> really important fact is that some people do not benefit from going to
> conferences. They do not make the connections, they do not get the
point.
When
people know this applies to them, it is an excellent argument for
them
> not to go.
>
> My experience is that going to conferences can be really effective.
There
are
opportunities that are hard to get in any other setting. My
experience
> is that people tend to be more approachable, more humane when I have
met
> them. It really helps me in what I do.
>
> Now Steve, why not address this. This is why money will be spend. It is
> realistic, effective and particularly for a new team a great
opportunity
to
> get to know people. My mum would applaud money spend effectively.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
> On 2 April 2014 12:10, Steve Zhang <cro0016(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'll just start off by saying these are my own personal views and
don't
> > necessarily represent the views of the
rest of the WMAU committee or
> > Wikimedia Australia as a whole.
> >
> > My view on spending funds might be seen as a bit extreme, but I
believe
that funds received through the APG process or from
money received
through
> current or past annual WMF fundraisers is still donor money
> , and that it does not belong to the relevant chapters
> , and
> as a result
> we need to respect that when spending our
> their
> money.
> Remember, most donations are less than $30 and come from everyday
people.
> > When I was planning a meetup in 2012, a
> > good friend of mine
> > reminded me about "Grandma", and to keep in mind how Grandma would
feel
> > about how I spent their $30. I've
kept this in mind ever since.
> >
> > This is why I feel we should always be
> > frugal with the funds
> > that we have as a movement whenever possible, and question whether
the
> > proposed expenditure is really
necessary. Also, how we use the funds
we
> as
> > chapters already have can help or hinder future requests for funds,
and
> this
is something I consider before signing off on a project or
> expenditure.
>
> I'm not one to criticise others for the decisions they've made, for
this
> -
> > but I think the guideline 2+1 really should be adhered to by all, and
> would
> > wonder what value there is in sending more than this along to the
> > conference on the dime of the donor. If it's acceptable for large
> chapters
> > with large reserves, it potentially puts smaller chapters at a
> disadvantage
> > or could be perceived as bias.
> >
> > With a week and a bit to go, it's not a time where this discussion
will
> > mean the arrangements already made for
attendees will be changed,
but I
> > would hope that us as chapters would
consider this more carefully
going
forward. Might be a worthy discussion topic in
Berlin.
Steve Zhang
President - Wikimedia Australia
On 02/04/2014 9:27 am, "Itzik Edri" <itzik(a)infra.co.il> wrote:
> Sorry Nicole, but I'm unhappy with your answer. You are right,
engagement
> > on other topics is needed, but this is not means people don't have
the
> > right to ask questions and raise
concerns.
> >
> > We didn't have this discussions last year, as none of the chapter
sent
more
> then 2+1. There were few people who came before to the Education
Meeting,
> > but the left and didn't attend the ChapConf. I think we deserve to
know
> why
> > this has been changed, and why no one notify or discussed about it
> before.
> > I was member of the location committee, and I'm definitely remember
we
> > > asked all the proposals to calculates the event costs by this
"rule"
of
>
number of representatives from each org. More than that, when we
decided
> to
> > select Berlin, we even mentioned the fact that last years WMDE's
staff
> > and
> > > board was widely around, "breaking" the equality we are looking
for,
> and
> > > asking to minimize WMDE's attendees to only what needed to run the
> > > conference.
> > >
> > > WMDE did a great step toward open discussions about the goals and
the
> > > program of the conference, so I
find it strange they didn't
welcome,
or
> > willing to response such a crucial
question that changed the status
quo
we
> been used to since the beginning so secretly.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Nicole Ebber <
nicole.ebber(a)wikimedia.de
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > I am glad that 1,5 weeks before the conference, there is finally
some
> >
activity showing up on the lists and the meta pages. I must admit
that
> > > I would have really loved to see more engagement on topics like
> > > conference goals and themes, support for the programme team
regarding
> >
programme decisions, schedule and outcomes rather than having the
same
> > discussions on rules and logistics like
every year before.
> >
> > There is still time (2 days) to give input to the schedule or
> > volunteer as a speaker for some of the sessions. And most
importantly,
> > > to start discussing and taking position towards the conference
topics
> > > on-wiki and internally in our home
organisations.
> > >
> > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conference_2014/Programme
> > > >
> > > > Everyone interested is very welcome to provide thoughts and
ideas.
We
> > > have three days full of exciting
sessions, highly political
> > > discussions and fun ahead of us, let's make the best of it
together!
> > > >
> > > > I am looking forward to seeing so many of you next week in
Berlin!
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Nicole
> > > >
> > > > On 1 April 2014 10:47, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > Money entrusted to a chapter is for that chapter to spend as
they
see
> > > fit.
> > > > The notion that it is money from the "public" is not a
license
for
> > > everyone
> > > > to meddle. There are people and places where such scrutiny is
best
> > > > expressed. When questions are
asked, let them be questions and
not
> > > > implicit
> > > > > condemnations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fae can do whatever he likes. However, he should understand
that
as a
> > > former chair it is best for the
new team to move in its own
direction
> > and
> > > > not in the old direction. There is plenty that can be done that
is
> > not
> > > > > controversial.
> > > > >
> > > > > When formalities are used as arguments, you loose sight what
the
> > > > > formalities are there
for. It is best to "ignore all rules"
when
that
> > > gets
> > > > the job done in an effective way. The notion that because
somewhere
>
else
> > in
> > > "the movement" things have gone "wrong" does not
justify the
current
> > > > criticism. A legitimate question could be "you are sending a
large
> > > > > delegation, why is that". It is not legitimate to say
"you
waste
> > money
> > > by
> > > > > sending people to a conference, why is that".
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Op 31 mrt. 2014 16:44 schreef "Russavia" <
> > russavia.wikipedia(a)gmail.com
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Gerard, et al
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > > > >> <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > My point is very much that it is for the chapter to
decide
if
> they
> > > > >> > spend their money wisely. It is for members of a
chapter to
> > question
> > > > this
> > > > >> > at an appropriate time and at an appropriate place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Might I make a point here.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is not "their money", but rather the money of
donors --
i.e.
> the
> > > > general
> > > > >> public -- who are every year told that Wikipedia needs your
help
to
> > > >> survive.
> > > >>
> > > >> The "movement", as you all like to refer to it, has a
tendency
to
> > > waste
> > > > >> money on frivolous things such as travel and accommodation,
as
> > > > demonstrated
> > > > >> last year by
> > > > >>
http://twkozlowski.net/how-40k-dollars-turned-to-petty-cash/and
> > > > >>
http://twkozlowski.net/saving-by-spending-according-to-affcom/
> > > > >>
> >
> > > >> The appropriate time to question such spending is BEFORE the
> funds
> > > is
> > > > > >> committed and spent. The place is unimportant, but here
is as
> good
> > > as
> > > > > any.
> > > > >>
> >
> > > >> As a member of "the movement", Fae has every right to
ask such
> > > > > questions,
> > > > > >> and I believe he also has the right to be able to ask
such
> > questions
> > > > > >> without snide remarks such as "Really Fae, as you
are no
longer
> the
> > > > chair,
> > > > >> why rule "from the grave"?" being thrown at
him .
Unfortunately,
> > there
> > > > is a
> > > > >> tendency in "the movement" when legitimate
questions are
raised,
> > > for a
> > > > > >> committed movementarian to deflect from that
questioning with
> > snide
> > > > > >> attacks.
> > > > >>
> >
> > > >> Now, Fae has asked some legit questions of UK chapter, and it
is
> > > only
> > > > > fair
> > > > > >> that they answer them.
> > > > >>
> >
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >>
> >
> > > >> Russavia
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > >
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Nicole Ebber
> > > > > Leiterin Internationales
> > > > > Head of International Affairs
> > > > >
> > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
Berlin
> > Tel. +49 30 219158 26-0
> >
> >
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> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
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