Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

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Fæ

19 Aug 2017 19 Aug '17

3:31 p.m.

The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic Environment. It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_KEYWORD… Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Rogol Domedonfors

19 Aug 19 Aug

8:16 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Fae, You seem rather too quick to leap to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you on intellectual property has an imperfect understanding or is consciously committing "copyfraud". Have you made any attempts whatsoever to engage with the organisation in question to find what their position is and consider whether it might have some merits? Have you considered that if you were to approach them in a less aggressive fashion, they might be happy to work with you or others to release their collection? Alternatively, if you are absolutely confident that your understanding of the law is correct and theirs is not, then you are at no risk of being successfully prosecuted, so what is your problem? "Rogol" On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic Environment. It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_ KEYWORD=Francis%20M%20Chrystal&collection_items_page=40 Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Peter Southwood

8:42 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Rogol, Not everyone is blessed with your easy-going tolerance and automatic assumption of good faith. Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Rogol Domedonfors Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:16 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works Fae, You seem rather too quick to leap to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you on intellectual property has an imperfect understanding or is consciously committing "copyfraud". Have you made any attempts whatsoever to engage with the organisation in question to find what their position is and consider whether it might have some merits? Have you considered that if you were to approach them in a less aggressive fashion, they might be happy to work with you or others to release their collection? Alternatively, if you are absolutely confident that your understanding of the law is correct and theirs is not, then you are at no risk of being successfully prosecuted, so what is your problem? "Rogol" On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic Environment. It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_ KEYWORD=Francis%20M%20Chrystal&collection_items_page=40 Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Rogol Domedonfors

9:06 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Peter, Thanks for the compliment. I just call them as I see them. Richard On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic Environment. It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_ KEYWORD=Francis%20M%20Chrystal&collection_items_page=40 Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Peter Southwood

20 Aug 20 Aug

4:18 a.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Funny thing, That is what I would have said of Fae as well Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Rogol Domedonfors Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 11:07 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works Peter, Thanks for the compliment. I just call them as I see them. Richard On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic Environment. It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_ KEYWORD=Francis%20M%20Chrystal&collection_items_page=40 Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Rogol Domedonfors

6:35 a.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Peter ... and people who disagree post comments to that effect in a free, fair and frank exchange of views. So all is well. Reynard On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 5:18 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

to release their collection?

Alternatively, if you are absolutely confident that your understanding of the law is correct and theirs is not, then you are at no risk of being successfully prosecuted, so what is your problem? "Rogol" On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: > The Canmore database, https://canmore.org.uk, describes itself as > the "online catalogue of the National Record of the Historic

Environment.

It holds detailed information and archive images for more than 300,000 places in Scotland." Canmore is part of Historic Environment Scotland (HES). I'm aware that Wikimedia UK has helped to fund several projects in Scotland, so there is a network of contacts that could help take a look at the problematic claims of copyright. Perhaps someone can offer to take action to help Historic Environment Scotland reach a better understanding of copyright and avoid basic copyfraud errors? In theory this could be a marvelous reference resource for open knowledge about the history of Scotland, but the online catalogue seems more like a retail outlet geared to maximise the cash to be made from selling archive images, many of which are obviously public domain. There are two basic problems: * The online archive is limited to 800px width images, with website users directed to buy higher resolutions which are claimed to be a minimum of 3,000 pixels wide. * Regardless of age, source or photographer all images are claimed as copyright with the conditions including "No permission is given for any commercial use, distribution or reproduction in these terms. Please use the BUY option for these purposes and separate licences will be provided." I would be delighted to release some of the public domain collections from Canmore at high resolution to Wikimedia Commons, but at the moment it's all locked down. In fact were I to try to release the disappointingly small 800px versions of public domain images, even using the "required" attribution to RCAHMS (which no longer exists), I would be at personal risk of prosecution by HES based on the site terms and conditions. See examples 1 and 2. Examples: 1. Photograph of Hanover Street taken in 1870 by an unknown photographer, making it likely to have been public domain from 1898. https://canmore.org.uk/collection/466213 2. Over 950 photographs taken by Francis M Christal, who died in 1944, making all photographs public domain in 2014: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/result?GROUPCATEGORY=5&SIMPLE_ KEYWORD=Francis%20M%20Chrystal&collection_items_page=40 Thanks, Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Gerard Meijssen

6:56 a.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Hoi, This exchange of views is limited to the views being in a narrow way connected to what is originally posted. When a diametrically opposed view is expressed it is easily confused with subject high jacking. Arguably this thread has gone of the rails already and in direct reply no to your point, it is not a free exchange of views. Thanks, GerardM On 20 August 2017 at 08:35, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonfors(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

to release their collection?

Environment.

Andy Mabbett

19 Aug 19 Aug

10:37 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

On 19 August 2017 at 21:16, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonfors(a)gmail.com> wrote: A: Because it messes up the order in which we read text Q: Why is top posting such a bad thing? A: Top posters Q: What's the most annoying thing on mailing lists?

...

I have, and I found both "an imperfect understanding" and "consciously committing copyfraud" to apply.

...

Alternatively, if you are absolutely confident that your understanding of the law is correct and theirs is not, then you are at no risk of being successfully prosecuted, so what is your problem?

Even an unsuccessful prosecution can be very costly, in terms of both money and time, to the defendant.

Todd Allen

11:46 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Andy (or Fae), if you've corresponded with them, could you please post that correspondence here? Todd

Lodewijk

20 Aug 20 Aug

2:58 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Maybe a silly question, but is there no more specialized forum that would be more suitable to have this conversation? I'm not sure if we need the wide movement list to discuss the copyright policy of a particular UK database. Or is there a specific expertise you're searching for? If so, I somehow missed the question for that in the exchange. Best, Lodewijk ps: sorry Andy if it annoys you. I do think there's a diverse set of opinions on top-posting or not, these days. Especially as email clients have changed to suit the needs of those that do. I fear it's a battle lost. On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Andy (or Fae), if you've corresponded with them, could you please post that correspondence here? Todd _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Fæ

3:22 p.m.

New subject: Canmore database and claims of copyright on public domain works

Yes! I intended to post to the UK list, and thought I had until reading this. Oops. Fae https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LGBT+ http://telegram.me/wmlgbt On 20 Aug 2017 15:59, "Lodewijk" <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: Maybe a silly question, but is there no more specialized forum that would be more suitable to have this conversation? I'm not sure if we need the wide movement list to discuss the copyright policy of a particular UK database. Or is there a specific expertise you're searching for? If so, I somehow missed the question for that in the exchange. Best, Lodewijk ps: sorry Andy if it annoys you. I do think there's a diverse set of opinions on top-posting or not, these days. Especially as email clients have changed to suit the needs of those that do. I fear it's a battle lost. On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Andy (or Fae), if you've corresponded with them, could you please post

that

...

correspondence here? Todd _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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participants (7)

Andy Mabbett
Fæ
Gerard Meijssen
Lodewijk
Peter Southwood
Rogol Domedonfors
Todd Allen