I don't work for the Foundation, but my understanding is that the HR folks there - and I'm sure many others across the organisation - have thought a lot about the staff (and salary) implications of being an international project with a US HQ. One particular question that seems to come up is about whether salaries should be adjusted to the cost of living in a particular region, which I personally agree with for the reasons that Felipe outlined. 

I do find this comment interesting: "WMF already has many employees that are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate." I don't know who determines whether employment conditions are moral or otherwise? As a (not entirely random) indicator, the minimum required paid maternity leave in the U.S. is zero weeks, whereas in Romania it's a year. 

Lucy

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 at 13:05, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
      (Felipe Schenone)
   2. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
      (The Cunctator)
   3. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour (Gnangarra)
   4. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
      (Amir Sarabadani)
   5. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
      (Ciell Wikipedia)
   6. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
      (Kassia Echavarri-Queen)
   7. Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual Plan
      (Maryana Iskander)
   8. Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call on ChatGPT, generative AI, and Wikimedia
      (Kimmo Virtanen)
   9. [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the seventeenth annual Picture of the Year contest
      (Kunal Mehta)
  10. WikiYouthCon Update (James Popoola)
  11. Graph Extension (Tim Moody)
  12. Re: Graph Extension (James Heilman)
  13. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)
  14. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:22:21 -0300
From: Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
        tour
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CABbLfopUW11bTNCSFGbE8Dq6TgXvJjofeiZfm-tyGXo68kvJYw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="00000000000042bac405f99b5eed"

Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a month
means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you want, buy
food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left over to
buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick Google search
suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs around USD 4000,
while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be wrong, but judging
from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can
see that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
16,000 a month.

Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
(such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:

> or the 3am meetings
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
>> money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>> travel.
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>>> Romania or something)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>    deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>    own.
>>>>>    - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>    are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>    angry.
>>>>>    - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>>>>>    deprecate functionality.
>>>>>    - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>    - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>    requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>
>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>
>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved,
>>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Boodarwun
>>>> Gnangarra
>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:29:42 -0400
From: The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
        tour
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CACOqVVugg9K_So4J7VeRbbhGK+LYfvn-28qMWyTmxPHzcZejag@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="000000000000f80f4705f99b7600"

I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> wrong, but judging from
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> 16,000 a month.
>
> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
> 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> or the 3am meetings
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
>>> money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>> travel.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>>>> Romania or something)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>>    deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>>    own.
>>>>>>    - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>>    are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>>    angry.
>>>>>>    - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>>    to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>>    - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>>    - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>>    requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 20:44:04 +0800
From: Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
        tour
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAD==kbK7wJUrhxapDWP-pmJHHtK0Q_1vj10+hPn=wckvS_ceLg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="0000000000004b936005f99baa2c"

The point here is that getting rid of staff in one country, purely to hire
someone in another country to do the same job for significantly less, is
morally bankrupt. The same issue goes with hiring new people solely from
selected countries for the same reason.  We are a global community and that
means we should seek out people regardless of their location or the labour
laws.

That also translates to other areas of the community, where we chose not to
even consider achieving equity in global activities. We need to do more to
balance equity through other means.

Yes this has drifted away from the pure software issues, being morally
loose "because we can" should never be the solution to any problem.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 20:30, The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
>> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
>> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
>> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
>> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
>> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
>> wrong, but judging from
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
>> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
>> 16,000 a month.
>>
>> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
>> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
>> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
>> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
>> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
>> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
>> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
>> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> or the 3am meetings
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
>>>> saving money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
>>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
>>>>>>> to Romania or something)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
>>>>>>> bit...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
>>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
>>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>>>    deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>>>    own.
>>>>>>>    - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>>>    are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>>>    angry.
>>>>>>>    - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>>>    to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>>>    - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>>>    - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>>>    requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
>>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Boodarwun
>>>> Gnangarra
>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org



--
Boodarwun
Gnangarra
'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar koortaboodjar'
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:50:05 +0200
From: Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
        tour
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CA+ttme0nP8_xU1AtDFmxdPwxuz_9mNwJi8S_S9F1maeasBB_=w@mail.gmail.com>
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The discussion about where to hire is way more nuanced than it looks. The
world doesn't split between SF with astronomical salaries and people who
don't have access to clean water but are very cheap to hire.
Some points to consider:
Other cities in the US are cheaper to hire but with comparable (if not
better in some cases) standards of living.
Many European countries are way cheaper to hire. I'm comparing general tech
salaries, not WMF ones, Germany is basically half of the SF and Poland is
roughly one fourth. Both have decent standards of living and arguably even
better labour protection laws. Similarly the UK, Spain, Italy and France.
Also there are more things to consider: Talent pools, some countries have
strong tech communities like Greece, Poland, Ukraine and some countries
don't. Or We can't hire from residents of some countries due to safety and
security reasons, We also need to make sure WMF is a global community of
diverse staff.

Striking the balance between all of the above is not easy.



Am Di., 18. Apr. 2023 um 14:30 Uhr schrieb The Cunctator <
cunctator@gmail.com>:

> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
>> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
>> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
>> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
>> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
>> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
>> wrong, but judging from
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
>> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
>> 16,000 a month.
>>
>> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
>> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
>> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
>> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
>> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
>> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
>> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
>> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> or the 3am meetings
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
>>>> saving money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
>>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
>>>>>>> to Romania or something)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
>>>>>>> bit...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
>>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
>>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>>>    deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>>>    own.
>>>>>>>    - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>>>    are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>>>    angry.
>>>>>>>    - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>>>    to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>>>    - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>>>    - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>>>    requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
>>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Boodarwun
>>>> Gnangarra
>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org



--
Amir (he/him)
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:09:05 +0200
From: Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
        announcement
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAGarBBchuRYreKGWn3obqT8XAewqOVZ7SrAuDVOEvktrzvsawQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="00000000000059e13405f99db2fb"

Hi everyone,

Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
They are listed in the blogpost on our website
<https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
also all the national winners on Commons
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.

If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
the list with links:

   1.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:วัดพระศรีรัตนศาสดาราม 8.jpg
   2.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
   3.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
   4.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
   5.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
   6.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
   7.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
   sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
   8.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
   9.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
   10.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
   11.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
   12.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy Żmigród, Cmentarz żydowski
   w Nowym Żmigrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
   13.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
   14.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek Książ.jpg
   15.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
   The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:

   <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg>
   16.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
   <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
   17.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
   <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
   18.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
   19.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
   Tomb.jpg
   20.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
   Apsis (3124).jpg
   21.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:午後的瀞園.jpg
   22.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
   23.


   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
   24.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
   25.

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg


Enjoy!!

Best,
Ciell


Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:

> Thanks for share the news!
>
> El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
> ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
>> for 2022 😍
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
>>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
>>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
>>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
>>>
>>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social media
>>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
>>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
>>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
>>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
>>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
>>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30 minutes.
>>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number 15 at
>>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half hour, to
>>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
>>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
>>>
>>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
>>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and congratulating the
>>> winners.
>>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own blog
>>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
>>> afterwards.
>>>
>>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
>>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this would
>>> have been possible.
>>>
>>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ciell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> --
>> derrick
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:40:11 -0700
From: Kassia Echavarri-Queen <kechavarriqueen@wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
        announcement
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAL8QfoejGo4FycpniQds_2eX4PDFo8oNXSKN1iunR-ud-DexMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="0000000000004805d305f99fcdfc"

Absolutely beautiful! Congratulations to all the winners, participants and
organizers!!!

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:10 AM Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
> They are listed in the blogpost on our website
> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
> also all the national winners on Commons
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.
>
> If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
> the list with links:
>
>    1.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:วัดพระศรีรัตนศาสดาราม 8.jpg
>    2.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
>    3.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
>    4.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
>    5.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
>    6.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
>    7.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
>    sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
>    8.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
>    9.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
>    10.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
>    11.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
>    12.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy Żmigród, Cmentarz
>    żydowski w Nowym Żmigrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
>    13.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
>    14.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek
>    Książ.jpg
>    15.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
>    The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:
>
>    <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg>
>    16.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
>    <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
>    17.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
>    <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
>    18.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
>    19.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
>    Tomb.jpg
>    20.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
>    Apsis (3124).jpg
>    21.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:午後的瀞園.jpg
>    22.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
>    23.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
>    24.
>
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
>    25.
>
>    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg
>
>
> Enjoy!!
>
> Best,
> Ciell
>
>
> Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:
>
>> Thanks for share the news!
>>
>> El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
>> ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>>> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
>>> for 2022 😍
>>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
>>>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
>>>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
>>>>
>>>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social media
>>>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
>>>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
>>>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
>>>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
>>>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30 minutes.
>>>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number 15 at
>>>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half hour, to
>>>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
>>>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
>>>>
>>>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
>>>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and congratulating the
>>>> winners.
>>>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own blog
>>>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
>>>> afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
>>>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this would
>>>> have been possible.
>>>>
>>>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Ciell
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> --
>>> derrick
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/A4ESHTW2BWWNECEICJU2AA5VL5MLTSNX/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H6GTLQ4I3TBDL4BEIVFYHL22JPBMF674/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:39:47 -0500
From: Maryana Iskander <miskander@wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual
        Plan
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAOmY16h4QXsfE4Hv22ZsCvWVEqHY0H9p+BPBxStZiCf14cus+w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="00000000000056fbbc05f99fcde2"

This message is being translated into other languages on Meta-wiki.

‎العربية • español • français • português • русский • 中文
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update>

You can help with more languages.
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update>


Hi everyone,


As I near my one-and-a-half year mark as CEO of the Wikimedia Foundation, I
intend to continue providing updates here and elsewhere every few months
based on your ongoing feedback. (You can find my note from January 2023
here [1], and all of my past letters on Meta [2]).


My top three priorities have remained consistent: (1) strategy/planning,
(2) leadership, and (3) culture/values. On strategy, Wikimedia Foundation
Board of Trustees Chair Nataliia Tymkiv recently shared the outcomes [3] of
a strategic planning retreat that brought together Foundation leadership
with the Wikimedia Endowment Board and members of the Movement Charter
Drafting Committee. On planning, I will share more below.


On leadership, last Friday, our Chief Product & Technology Officer Selena
Deckelmann reflected on her first six months on the job. Selena named some
of the big issues [4] she hopes to help us all tackle in the years to come.
Thank you to those who have already given her some initial reactions.


Finally, I continue to believe more strongly than ever that culture and
values will be the most sustainable way to make lasting, positive change
together – on this front, the Wikimedia Foundation will complete a refresh
of our organizational values [5] by July.


The main purpose of this letter is to point you to the Foundation’s draft
annual plan [6] for our coming fiscal year (July 2023 through June 2024).
One of the first tasks I named when I started this job was to reimagine the
Foundation’s annual planning processes. Last year’s plan, my first at the
Foundation, was focused on radically changing how we did our work. This
included organizing our work more regionally to better respond to varying
needs around the world, and also leveling up our own performance,
accountability, and internal collaboration. This has put us in a better
position to more meaningfully describe what we can do in the year ahead.


Five quick observations about the draft plan before you hopefully take time
to look at the 17,000+ word document:



   1.

   Looking outward: Like last year, the plan starts by looking outward and
   persistently asking ‘what does the world need from us now’? This question
   remains at the heart of the Foundation’s approach to strategy and
planning. Earlier
   this year, we shared external trends [7] impacting the mission of free
   knowledge, and built on those trends with a well-attended community
   conversation about recent advancements in generative AI and what that may
   mean for the projects. Your reflections [8] on these trends is probably
   the most important way to help make sure we’re all focused on the right
   things over the long term.



   1.

   Anchored in movement strategy: For the second year, the plan is firmly
   and unambiguously anchored in movement strategy. Our intention is to
   connect the Foundation’s work even more deeply with the Movement Strategy
   Recommendations [9] for more rapid progress towards the 2030 Strategic
   Direction [10]. This is made actionable in our commitments to advancing
   knowledge equity, growing the resource base for community-driven
   priorities, and making sure the Foundation’s own effectiveness measurably
   improves from learning and iteration.



   1.

   Our role in Product & Technology: Wikimedia’s people-centered movement
   is powered by product and technology delivered by the Foundation and
   volunteers. We have tried to more intentionally describe our unique role
   as the platform provider supporting communities who are collaborating on a
   massive scale. The bulk of this effort, called “Wiki Experiences,”[11]
   recognizes that volunteers are at the heart of the Wikimedian process of
   sensemaking and knowledge creation, and prioritizes established editors
   (including those with extended rights, like admins, stewards, patrollers,
   and moderators of all kinds, also known as functionaries) to ensure that
   they have the right tools for the critical work they do every day to expand
   and improve quality content, as well as manage community processes.



   1.

   Slower growth and trade-offs: As you will see in the draft plan, an
   important driver of multi-year strategic planning will focus on the
   structure of the Foundation’s budget, future financial projections, and
   possible revenue/product trade-offs. As I shared in my note in January,
   given the revenue shortfall from the December English fundraising campaign,
   as well as an uncertain global economic outlook, the Foundation is
   projecting reduced expenses and slower growth than in past years. Over the
   past month, we have made internal budget cuts, prioritizing non-personnel
   expenses but also reducing staffing by 5 percent. These difficult decisions
   were made to support a more sustainable trajectory in expenses for the
   coming few years, and also to maintain our overall funding levels to
   movement partners (including more funding in all regions while prioritizing
   proportionally larger growth in underrepresented regions).



   1.

   More granular information about how the Foundation operates. To increase
   visibility and accountability [12], this annual plan includes more detailed
   financial projections, such as various budget breakdowns of how we allocate
   our resources. It also shares more granular organizational information,
   such as our department goals, people processes, global guidelines, and
   compensation principles. This is meant to complement some of the
   Foundation’s recently published Diff posts outlining our approach to pay
   visibility [13] and describing how we support a highly-distributed remote
   workforce [14]. I hope this level of detail will result in more good-faith
   conversations about what is, and what is not, possible to do with the
   resources that we have.


Over the next month, all of us at the Wikimedia Foundation look forward to
hearing more from you on the direction we are taking. We have tried to
enable this in whatever form you prefer: on-wiki on Meta [15], project
village pumps, and open calls both virtual and in person [16] that are
being hosted over the coming weeks, many in partnership with global
communities around the world. Your comments, reflections, and provocations
will help improve what we have proposed to do before the Foundation’s Board
of Trustees considers the plan and budget in their June meeting.


I continue to welcome your direct engagement at miskander@wikimedia.org or
on my talk page [17].


Maryana


Maryana Iskander

Wikimedia Foundation CEO


p.s. On a more personal note – in keeping with the tradition of
transparency on additional board roles, earlier this year I shared with the
Wikimedia Foundation Trustees that I am under consideration to join the
board of Yale University, my law school alma mater. The alumni election
process is underway now, and I will let you know the results when they are
finalized.


[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Year_One_Update

[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates#Maryana_Iskander

[3]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/March_2023_Meeting_Outcomes_from_Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_of_Trustees

[4]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Leadership_team/Chief_Product_and_Technology_Officer/Selena%27s_Listening_Tour

[5]
https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/17/we-are-in-this-mission-together-refreshing-the-values-of-the-wikimedia-foundation/

[6]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024

[7]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends

[8]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends/Community_call_notes

[9]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Summary

[10]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017

[11]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/Product_%26_Technology#Wiki_Experiences

[12]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Principles#Transparency_&_Accountability

[13]
https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/02/17/wikimedia-foundation-remote-first-and-global-community-of-staff/

[14]
https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/06/wikimedia-foundation-global-guidelines-policies-practices/

[15]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024

[16]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Collaboration

[17]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/User_talk:MIskander-WMF
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 21:20:48 +0300
From: Kimmo Virtanen <kimmo.virtanen@wikimedia.fi>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call
        on ChatGPT, generative AI, and Wikimedia
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAHJYWXEiKwVpggjYGTJoZgFR+kFhDn-v8Cb2b9bfFdeszgyYQw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="0000000000008b706805f9a05e2d"

Some interesting updates on current developments

Open Assistant is open source ChatGPT clone with crowdsourced fine-tuning
- https://open-assistant.io

Redpajama is project for reproducing LLaMA and releasing the model under
open source licence. Current status is that they have released the
pre-training data
- https://www.together.xyz/blog/redpajama

Free-dolly is CC-BY-SA licenced fine-tuning dataset.
-
https://www.databricks.com/blog/2023/04/12/dolly-first-open-commercially-viable-instruction-tuned-llm

 LLM chat which runs in web browser (non-open source Vicuna-7B)
- https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/16/web-llm/

Afaik all of these are clear steps towards full open source LLM stack.
Especially Open Assistant is especially interesting as it is focusing on
crowdsourcing.

Br,
-- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache

On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 8:43 PM Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com> wrote:

> At this point I guess I would recommend adding five or so
>> g2.cores8.ram36.disk20 flavor VPSs to WMCS, with between one and three
>> RTX A6000 GPUs each, plus a 1TB SSD each, which should cost under
>> $60k. That should allow for very widely multilingual models somewhere
>> between GPT-3.5 and 4 performance with current training rates.
>>
>
> Having part of the cluster for this makes sense, even as what it is used
> for changes over time.
>
>
>> These models can be quantized into int4 weights which run on cell
>> phones:
>> https://github.com/rupeshs/alpaca.cpp/tree/linux-android-build-support
>> It seems inevitable that we will someday include such LLMs with
>> Internet-in-a-Box, and, why not also the primary mobile apps
>>
>
> Eventually, yes. A good reason to renew attention to mobile as a canonical
> wiki experience.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/R2KSXD3VE4MPGSIIYCPUMFXFPIY7D5CH/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:05:06 -0400
From: Kunal Mehta <legoktm@debian.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the
        seventeenth annual Picture of the Year contest
To: wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimedia Commons
        Discussion List <commons-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <773a1201-373c-28c7-d390-1c94eb8e993c@debian.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

Hi all,

Voting is now open in the seventeenth annual Picture of the Year
contest: <https://w.wiki/6bcP> - please vote! The first round of voting
will be open for 2 weeks. There are over 1,100 pictures being considered
this year and several new categories.

Any user with more than 75 edits before Jan. 1, 2023 is eligible to
vote; if you're not sure the voting tool will automatically check for you.

If you have any questions, please see the help page: <https://w.wiki/6bcQ>.

Thanks,
-- POTY Committee
_______________________________________________
Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
_______________________________________________
WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list -- wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimediaannounce-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:57:52 +0100
From: James Popoola <popoolaojames@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WikiYouthCon Update
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
        Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
        african-wikimedians@lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID:
        <CAJHeAUBqf54xoCz6c==ZxbQKOf5cMZ3=h8XWwAYwuRMMRk1MMA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="00000000000013f8bd05f9ad7619"

Hi Everyone,


The Wikimedia Youth Conference 2023 scheduled to be held in Spain in
September will be the first youth conference in the movement.


The conference grant team is eager to provide all relevant support in order
to ensure that the conference is successful. But in order to do this, more
time other than what is available will be needed. Therefore, they did
recommend that the conference be moved to 2024 in order to avail more time
to work on addressing relevant needs where possible.


We are therefore advised to keep our preparations still going. We also
understand that we could use this additional time to strategize more on the
conference planning.


We know that we had made a call for the conference subcommittees. We will
reach out to the selected applicants to explain how the engagement could
look like given this circumstance.


Beyond that, we will still be working on the conference design and
planning. We hope to keep you informed of all the updates as they come.


We are happy to answer any questions or concerns.


Best regards,

James Popoola

On behalf of the WikiYouthCon COT.
--
Best regards,
James Popoola
President, Wikimedia Fan Club University of Ilorin, Ilorin, Nigeria
Co-founder, Wiki Loves SDGs Nigeria & TCD Africa
Instagram <http://instagram.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/jamespopoola247> | Twitter
<http://twitter.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Linkedin
<http://linkedin.com/in/JamesPopoola> |Website
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:James_Moore200>
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 06:48:55 -0400
From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID:
        <CANis2dD+QnEkyEoCv1twRM06wFpwo9KYZrhA4siv-pbWcURkNw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="0000000000005c660605f9ae2c16"

Dear Wikimedians,

Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
great to have such an extension.

But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
and more compelling wiki pages.

I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.

Regards,

Tim Moody
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 20:34:05 +0900
From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAF1en7WX0H=eCqdqV_JOWeFCF9s4qb9C3tdzhcimPrdt9j_B5A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="000000000000e3604205f9aecddd"

And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within
a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here

https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use

All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here

https://owidm.wmcloud.org/

James

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49 PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com> wrote:

> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/U5GEMXBCBHITM7NACGH2VVYDXVRVJVVA/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:44:05 +0000
From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:  <DB9P193MB1324D0C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629@DB9P193MB1324.EUR
        P193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;    boundary="_000_DB9P193MB1324D0
        C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629DB9P193MB1324EURP_"

Dear all,
There are thousands of articles in many languages using Graph extension. At the Basque Wikipedia we are running a project to add climate data using it, and we were presenting it in some days. Is there any news on this?

Best,

Galder
________________________________
From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:34 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension

And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here

https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use

All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here

https://owidm.wmcloud.org/

James

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49 PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com<mailto:tim@timmoody.com>> wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,

Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is great to have such an extension.

But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools and more compelling wiki pages.

I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.

Regards,

Tim Moody
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:45:50 +0000
From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
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The Basque Wikimedians User Group is working in the deployment of OWID and the security review is pending: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989. As always, we have invested time and money on this, but it seems stalled in the Foundation side.
________________________________
From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 12:48 PM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension

Dear Wikimedians,

Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is great to have such an extension.

But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools and more compelling wiki pages.

I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.

Regards,

Tim Moody
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End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 790, Issue 1
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