Dear all,
I would like to remind you that the deadline for the call for submissions
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2023/Submissions>
for Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2023>, which will
take place in the period 15–17 September, expires today. If you plan to
share your learning and experience with the others at this online event,
the time for submitting your session proposal is now.
Best regards,
Kiril Simeonovski
Chair of the Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023 programme committee
Dear Wikimedians,
Two days ago, a participant in one of our edit-a-thons consulted ChatGPT
when writing an article on the Macedonian Wikipedia that did not exist on
any other language edition. ChatGPT provided some output, but the problem
was how to cite it.
The community on the Macedonian Wikipedia has not yet had a discussion on
this matter and we do not have any guidelines. So, my main questions are
the following:
* Can ChatGPT be used as a reliable source and, if yes, how would the
citation look like?
* Are there any ongoing community discussions on introducing guidelines?
My personal opinion is that ChatGPT should be avoided as a reliable source,
and only the original source where the algorithm gets the information from
should be used.
Best regards,
Kiril
Dear all,
This year we, the innovation team at Wikimedia Deutschland and partners
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Re-imagining_UNLOCK/People_involved>, are
setting out on a journey to build a new format for the Wikimedia Movement
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Re-imagining_UNLOCK>, a safe space that
will foster innovation and allow members of our community to experiment
with and build new ideas for Free Knowledge.
As a first step we asked all our stakeholders for input through a survey
and interviews on the needs and challenges our Movement faces in innovating
in Free Knowledge. We have now collected the research data and compiled
some insightful problem statements – quite eye-opening!
Join us at our Open Innovation Café volume 2 to hear about what we have
found and how we will use these insights in building a new innovation
format for the Wikimedia Movement. Maybe some insights will also be helpful
in your work as well?
-
When and where will the Open Innovation Café take place? We will be
running two identical open cafés, so choose the slot and time zone that
suits you best:
-
Open Innovation Café option 1 on Tuesday, May 23rd, 5:00-5:30 pm CET
Access the Zoom call through this link:
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86297641111?pwd=OEQwQXVBV21mWlZJTWxld21HeGFHdz09
Meeting ID: 862 9764 1111 Passcode: 021114
-
Open Innovation Café option 2 on Thursday, May 25th, 9:30-10:00am CET
Access the Zoom call through this link:
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/83425967908?pwd=TTJyS29JRWNxT3dXektCVkMwdU1LQT09
Meeting ID: 834 2596 7908 Passcode: 088627
-
Who is the initiator of this Open Innovation Café? The Open Innovation
Café is initiated and will be hosted by the Innovation Engine of Wikimedia
Deutschland. The faces you will meet are program manager Lucia Obst and
program support Sissela Björk. If you want to catch up on what we are up
to, head over to our Meta page
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Re-imagining_UNLOCK>:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Re-imagining_UNLOCK.
-
Why are we reaching out to you? We are reaching out to people, affiliate
representatives and Wikimedia community members who are in some capacity
working on or interested in innovation in the Wikimedia Movement and/or
recommendation no. 9 “Innovate in Free Knowledge” of the Movement Strategy
2030.
-
What language will this Open Café take place in? This will be done in
English.
-
Do I need to prepare or bring anything? There is no requirement for
joining, simply drop in as you are. It is in the name – a coffee or other
beverage that makes you feel cozy is welcome. ☕
Best wishes,
Lucia & Sissela
Wikimedia Deutschland
(Apologies, accidentally deleted, content recovered)
From: Jimmy Wales <jimmywales(a)wikitribune.com>
To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 14:48:06 +0100
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Re: ChatGPT as a reliable source
On 2023-05-17 19:05, Samuel Klein wrote:
>
> I think any generative tools used to rewrite a section or article, or
> to produce a sibling version for a different reading-level, or to
> generate a timeline or other visualization that is then embedded in
> the article, should all be cited somehow.
While I don't have anything against that, obviously, I'm not really
convinced that we need to do this. I suppose it depends on the context.
If a non-native speaker of a language uses a spell checker, we don't ask
them to even mention it. If they use a more sophisticated grammar tool
to help them
with some nuance of that language, we don't ask them to even mention
it. If they use an AI tool to evaluate and edit their paragraph for
tone? What if they
use an AI tool to compare the text they are writing with the source
being cited, to see if the AI notices any discrepancies?
I feel that those last two use cases are going to be ubiquitous within a
couple of years, possibly even embedded in browsers or browser extensions.
> People using generative tools to draft new material should find
> reliable sources for every claim in that material, much more densely
> than you would when summarizing a series of sources yourself.
This is definitely true.
( Apologies, accidentally deleted, content recovered)
From: danboy12342 Mui <danboy12342(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 22:37:01 +0100
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] ChatGPT as a reliable source
I think that there is a difference between "ChatGPT told me the sky is red
and that is my source" and "a reliable source told me the sky was blue and
ChatGPT helped me write about that"
At it's core The GPT models are text generators, trained specifically to
sound as human and reliable as possible in the generated text. Nothing
else. The factual or not factual part is built on top, in ChatGPT's case
the "facts" are put together from whatever it read on the internet.
Something like Palm, Bard or BingGPT have a layer of "facts" built on top
with search functions like looking up your query for you and then
paraphrasing an article it found.
In short; ChatGPT isn't a source,
but you can give it information and ask for a well written article and use
that (although at this point in time reread to make sure it don't throw
anything else in there). So a secondary question is how do we, or de we at
all mention that chatGPT was used to generate the text, assuming the AI
gives you something useable do we cite just the source we gave to the bot
or do we cite the fact the bot read it and then produced a summary or
extracted facts from it. (That of course a human needs to check)
I think notes like "information from source X, ai edited" or "ai
summarized" should be something seriously considered for Wikipedia and
implemented at lot sooner than you think.
---------------------
-- Daniel Mui, (Daniel 生意 梅) (ダニエル・ムイ)
Caution of biases: i have been a part of openAI's beta programs for many
years and have a strong positive bias towards them and the work they do.
I'm a firm believer in AI supplementing every part of human life in the
near future.
As a developer I've become used to assuming everyone as heard of everything
and may come off as ignorant or expect you to know or be familiar with
something you really shouldn't be, i apologize for that.
On Wed, May 17, 2023, 08:08 Kiril Simeonovski <kiril.simeonovski(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Two days ago, a participant in one of our edit-a-thons consulted ChatGPT
> when writing an article on the Macedonian Wikipedia that did not exist on
> any other language edition. ChatGPT provided some output, but the problem
> was how to cite it.
>
> The community on the Macedonian Wikipedia has not yet had a discussion on
> this matter and we do not have any guidelines. So, my main questions are
> the following:
>
> * Can ChatGPT be used as a reliable source and, if yes, how would the
> citation look like?
>
> * Are there any ongoing community discussions on introducing guidelines?
>
> My personal opinion is that ChatGPT should be avoided as a reliable
> source, and only the original source where the algorithm gets the
> information from should be used.
>
> Best regards,
> Kiril
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org…
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org
(Apologies - accidentally deleted, content recovered)
From: Maryana Pinchuk <mpinchuk(a)wikimedia.org>
To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 23:59:20 -0000
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Could the broad use of ChatGPT mean more
accesses to Wikipedia?
Hi Anders & Ziko,
I do think you're right that people may increasingly turn to AI assistants
to get the kind of knowledge they formerly found on Wikipedia – and because
ChatGPT doesn't currently link to Wikipedia by default when answering a
query using our content, this poses a risk to the visibility and relevance
of our movement.
The "Future Audiences" team at Wikimedia is currently focused on better
understanding how people might interact with our content on an AI assistant
if it were more explicitly attributed, by building a Wikipedia plugin for
ChatGPT that does just that. You can find more details on this project
here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/…
The technical work is still in its early stages work, but if you'd like to
get updates on progress and provide input on future releases, please sign
up on the Meta page!
- Maryana (Pinchuk, not Iskander) on behalf of Future Audiences
(Apologies, this was accidentally deleted but we have recovered the content)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Maryana Pinchuk <mpinchuk(a)wikimedia.org>
To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 23:39:43 -0000
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikianswers Proposal
Hi all,
Just a quick +1 to Risker's comment that the WMF Product & Tech team has
set aside some resources in this fiscal year to exploring/testing
hypotheses around engaging "Future Audiences." You can read more about this
work here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/….
The remit of this team is not to build an entirely new project from
scratch, but rather to test a variety of underlying assumptions/hypotheses
that can help inform larger strategic investment (like what kind of new
projects we may need, if any) in future annual plans.
We're still compiling our test hypotheses, but I think this proposal
touches on a few of them (e.g.: people prefer to receive information
curated/collated by other humans vs AI; there are many more people who
would be regular visitors to our projects if our content wasn't all
longform text and better fit a quick-facts-browsing format, etc.). I'd love
to hear all your thoughts on whether these are the right hypotheses to
think about testing, if there are others, and how we might begin to test
some of these this year – though I'll note that we had a great turnout for
our first community Future Audiences focus group (
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/…)
and I'm not sure all the attendees are on this mailing list, so would
personally love to see this discussion move to the talk page on Meta :)
-Maryana (Pinchuk, not Iskander), on behalf of Future Audiences
Hello Wikimedians,
You are invited to the official launch of the Africa Day Campaign today.
In line with the African Union Day theme that seeks to document Africa’s
stories to increase the visibility of stories around Africa’s free trade, the
African Knowledge Initiative (AKI)
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Africa_Knowledge_Initiative> seeks to leverage
Wikimedia tools and platforms to breed innovative solutions to bridging the
content gap on global digital knowledge networks.
This initiative will be implemented through Open Foundation West Africa's
annual campaign, the Africa Wiki Challenge.
This year the Africa Wiki Challenge presents the Africa Day Campaign
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Africa_Day_Campaign_2023>, which aligns
with the African Union Day's theme of stories around Africa’s free trade
agenda, challenges, and benefits, among others.
Are you ready to contribute your quota in bridging the content gap on
Wikipedia??
Join the launch as an individual, group, organizer, participant, or
spectator as we officially launch the Africa Day Campaign globally !!!
*Theme: African Continental Free Trade*
Date: *Thursday, 18th of May, 2023 **(Today)*
Time: *03:00 pm UTC*
*To confirm your attendance, kindly register by clicking the link below*
https://bit.ly/3O21U2O
<https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F3O21U2O%3Ffbclid%3DIw…>
*For more information visit the Africa Day MetaPage*
https://bit.ly/3VzZKcD
<https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F3VzZKcD%3Ffbclid%3DIw…>
For inquiries kindly reach out to: info(a)ofwafrica.org
Make it a point to be there!
--
Eugene Makafui Masiku,
Communications Officer
Open Foundation West Africa
Hi Jayantilal,
as I'm reading this, mostly as an outsider from a different community who
has great appreciation for everything that has been accomplished in various
communities in India, I can feel the tension. This is unfortunately nothing
new, and it's an ongoing balance that has to be struck between helping out
as a staff member on one hand, and not undercutting the community to
organize itself on the other. This is a challenge, even with the best of
intentions. This only gets harder when there is a (real or perceived)
struggle for influence/power. I have come to understand that India is an
even more complex situation, due to the influence of CIS.
I noticed that the WCI organizers have put forward
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Discussions_and_F…
in response to this thread. It might be beneficial for the conversation to
try and follow up with this attempt to conversation, and see how far you
get with regards to the transparency that you seek. If you can achieve this
without the intervention of Maryana, this is probably more advantageous for
everyone involved. That does not mean you have to agree with what is
desirable, but at least you would be able to work from a common base of
facts/information.
If there are aspects on that page that are possibly misleading from your
point of view, or simply information that is missing, you might be
interested in bringing this up on the talkpage.
Just a thought,
Lodewijk
On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 2:04 PM Jayantilal Kothari <jayantilalkkd(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Maryana,
>
> Your Listening Tour has been a commendable initiative to understand the
> voice of the community. However, the essence of listening lies in its
> responsiveness.
>
> Over ten days ago, we raised concerns that unfortunately remain
> unaddressed. This isn't a single person sentiment but a collective voice
> from the Indian Wikimedia community, a voice that has grown stronger since
> the recent Wiki Conference India.
>
> We're concerned about the WMF India staff's involvement in community-led
> events, notably the Wiki Conference India. While their participation is
> welcome, there's a growing perception of encroachment on community-led
> initiatives. The community's autonomy is being compromised, and several
> experienced community members have voiced this concern on the public
> mailing list.
>
> Furthermore, we've observed that the WMF India Staff is assisting
> community members in crafting emails and guiding them on how to handle this
> mailing list situation. As a community, we believe in the ability of our
> members to speak for themselves. Currently, it appears that only those on
> the WMF payroll—either through grant salary/contract or through WMF-funded
> CIS salary—are speaking on behalf of Wiki Conference India, seemingly under
> the guidance of WMF Staff India. We urge WMF India Staff to step back and
> allow the community to voice their concerns independently. Check the Wiki
> Conference India Team on Meta. Most of them are drawing salaries from WMF
> or CIS or have been previous employees in the last 5 years. Very few are
> people who have always been volunteers. Many of them have also not written
> WMF against their name because they say they did this conference as
> volunteers. Was there no volunteer to come forward and organize? This means
> WMF staff have not been able to grow the community.
>
> We wish to understand the roles, responsibilities, and contributions of
> the WMF India staff who actively participated in the Wiki Conference India.
> Being paid by funds raised through volunteer-built platforms like
> Wikipedia, their active participation in community spaces calls for higher
> accountability.
>
> WMF has spent so much money on Strategy 2030 but the India Conference had
> no session on it why? India is not important or what? Sunday there was a
> session on Strategy 2030 but it was removed without telling participants.
> Why?
>
> We would like to clarify that this is not a request for personal
> information—since the identities of these staff members are already
> publicly known—but a call for professional transparency, as we seek to
> understand their specific roles and contributions. If these staff members
> were comfortable taking to the stage and receiving credit at the
> conference, they should be equally comfortable sharing the scope and impact
> of their work with the community that they serve. Their willingness to be
> in the public eye during the conference should extend to their professional
> commitments and achievements. We're keen to know about the partnerships
> they've formed over the past few years that have benefited Indian
> communities, the initiatives the communications team has launched beyond
> financial incentives for Instagram users, the community projects undertaken
> by other staff members, negative response on fundraising and the hiring
> practices aimed at empowering local user groups.
>
> Considering the nature of these questions, we're interested in
> understanding your strategy for obtaining an unbiased picture of the
> situation. If the primary sources of feedback are the WMF India staff or
> their superiors, it might be influenced by the very concern we raise.
>
> This message is a reminder about the necessity of listening when the
> community needs to be heard, not just when it's convenient. It's a plea for
> transparency and accountability—cornerstones of our community and the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> We understand that you might be busy, but we would appreciate at least an
> acknowledgment of this email, assuring us that our concerns have been heard
> and will be addressed.
>
> We look forward to your acknowledgment and response.
>
> On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 3:52 AM, Shyamal Bagchi <discard.media3(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My emails are also being censored.
>> Why is this happening and who is doing it ?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 00:51, Wiki Prasad <wiki_prasad(a)mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> i say same thing, my email not posted. it is censored.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 08, 2023 at 4:48 AM
>>> *From:* "Jayantilal Kothari" <jayantilalkkd(a)gmail.com>
>>> *To:* "Wikimedia India Community list" <
>>> wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>, miskander(a)wikimedia.org
>>> *Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF
>>> Staff in India
>>> Hello WCI 2023 Organizing team,
>>>
>>> First of all, thank you for hosting the event. I appreciate your
>>> willingness to engage in discussions and provide clarifications on concerns
>>> related to the conference. However, I would like to remind you that this
>>> email thread is specifically addressed to the Wikimedia Foundation and
>>> Maryana Iskander.
>>>
>>> I am curious if the Maryana/WMF has requested your team or given
>>> authorization for you to justify or defend their actions in this matter. As
>>> this thread focuses on WMF's actions and decisions in relation to the
>>> Indian community, it is crucial to maintain separate discussions for
>>> separate issues to ensure productive and organized conversations. I kindly
>>> request that you start a separate email thread or Meta-Wiki discussion for
>>> addressing concerns related to the conference itself.
>>>
>>> Let's give the WMF the opportunity to address the concerns raised here
>>> directly. Thank you for your understanding, and once again, congratulations
>>> on organizing a successful event.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Bodhisattwa,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your reply.
>>>>
>>>> While Wiki[p/m]edia started out as a pure volunteer project, it has
>>>> long occupied a sometimes uneasy position between some of the biggest and
>>>> most valuable companies on earth, who use our free content to make money,
>>>> and volunteers working for love. This makes culture clashes of some sort or
>>>> another inevitable. I don't have a solution.
>>>>
>>>> I also suspect that you have a point with the "white guilt". What this
>>>> means, of course, is that people are still not "seen".
>>>>
>>>> If you ever feel like writing an op-ed or report about these matters
>>>> for the Wikipedia Signpost
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost>, please
>>>> feel free to send me a mail or just drop into our Newsroom
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom>.
>>>> The Signpost hardly ever has content about India, let alone content written
>>>> by Indian contributors. (The issue due to be published in a few hours' time
>>>> is a rare exception.) It would be great to see that change.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Andreas
>>>> (User:Jayen466)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:55 PM Bodhisattwa <bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no denial that money is needed in our region to run programs
>>>>> but there should always be a critical debate, if we are asking too much
>>>>> amount and for the right cause. I can't talk about others but I come from a
>>>>> cross-border language community which has always shown high regards to the
>>>>> value of donation money and expressed concerns in the past, whenever it has
>>>>> felt that money asked in a grant proposal is out of proportionate. So,
>>>>> whenever a grant proposal comes from my language community or from the two
>>>>> affiliates of the region, we brainstorm for days, if not months, to
>>>>> understand if there remains any small chance to waste the valuable
>>>>> resources which are to be entrusted upon us. For example, questions
>>>>> naturally arises in our community that if we really need to or have the
>>>>> luxury to spend this huge amount of around 10 million INR just for a 3-days
>>>>> conference to meet and greet each other after a long time or could that
>>>>> amount of money be invested on local affiliates and communities so that
>>>>> they can sustain themselves and provide quality output for the next decade.
>>>>> There has always been this debate and the people who talked about the
>>>>> second option are quietly moving away from the movement as they were not
>>>>> heard properly or were targeted for their critical analysis. We strongly
>>>>> feel that throwing unnecessary amount of money to whatever proposal comes
>>>>> over from the region is detrimental to the community dynamics as these
>>>>> money spoils people in the communities, brings more mistrusts and
>>>>> corruption and changes the motivation to contribute to the open knowledge
>>>>> movement. Also, huge amount of money does not necessarily translate to
>>>>> delivery of high quality output all the time, good results can come from
>>>>> limited resources too, even with zero budget, if they are planned properly;
>>>>> there are numerous success stories in our movement of those, which are
>>>>> rarely acknowledged or celebrated.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we feel that there might be some 'white guilt' working in the
>>>>> background to reverse colonial sins from the past in the regions which
>>>>> might drive people from the west to approve more money in Africa and Asia
>>>>> without consideration of local inputs. Any voices against these western
>>>>> perspectives to flood local communities with huge amount of unnecessary
>>>>> money are marked as counter-productive, ignored, silenced and bypassed with
>>>>> different regulatory measures imposed upon the community until people stop
>>>>> criticising and get fed up of being ignored. For example, personally, I
>>>>> have developed apathy nowadays regarding whatever is happening around grant
>>>>> process western to our state border of West Bengal until they directly
>>>>> affects us and prefer to remain silent during their community review
>>>>> process.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I have no objection hiring WMF staffs from the region. In
>>>>> fact, a number of staffs and contractors from the region are and were
>>>>> highly respected for their support and understanding of the local
>>>>> communities. But all are not beds of roses. There are multiple evidences of
>>>>> opacities, ignorance, agenda pushing, bossing around, corporate mentality,
>>>>> hijacking of community plans and projects etc. among staffs, which builds
>>>>> walls of mistrusts separating them with the volunteers rather than breaking
>>>>> them. I can't disagree to what Jayantilal implied in his statement. So, to
>>>>> me, staffs are always welcome, but if they have no intention to listen and
>>>>> support for community needs, then we frankly don't need them around our
>>>>> communities to push their own agenda, we can manage ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 18:30 Andreas Kolbe <jayen466(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Bodhisattwa and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You raise an interesting point – that the influx of money appears to
>>>>>> have a demotivating effect on Indian volunteers. This has also come up in
>>>>>> discussion elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I have been one of those who have urged the WMF to spend more
>>>>>> money in India. I have always felt that actual spending on the ground has
>>>>>> not matched the Foundation's fundraising messages about how money is
>>>>>> urgently needed to build capacity in Indian and African languages. And I
>>>>>> have argued that hiring staff in India, e.g., makes more sense than hiring
>>>>>> staff in the US, where salary expectations may run to hundreds of thousands
>>>>>> of dollars per year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would you resolve these competing considerations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Andreas (Jayen466)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 3:21 AM Bodhisattwa <
>>>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Coincidentally, just yesterday afternoon, when we were having a
>>>>>>> meeting in Kolkata with volunteers from West Bengal and Bangladesh, these
>>>>>>> concerns came up among other things. We were wondering about the visible
>>>>>>> impact of the increasing number of WMF staffs in India to improve our
>>>>>>> editing and reading experiences, significant partnership development or
>>>>>>> strengthening the communities in the last few years and if they have any
>>>>>>> impact at all in our language community to make our life easier as
>>>>>>> volunteers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, if the volunteer communities or team of organizers are not
>>>>>>> strong and vigilant enough, there is always a chance to get something
>>>>>>> hijacked by staffs. This is not new; it has happened before a number of
>>>>>>> times and it will happen a lot more in the future. This could not be
>>>>>>> avoided as I feel the spirit of volunteerism in the Indian communities is
>>>>>>> much much weaker than the past and dying, if not already dead in some of
>>>>>>> the cases. In the last few years, I have seen long term trusted community
>>>>>>> members from all over the country leave the movement frustrated, heart
>>>>>>> broken and exhausted, including from my language community. Increasing flow
>>>>>>> of unnecessary money are rapidly changing the motivation of volunteers with
>>>>>>> a strange notion prevailing nowadays that money is the solution of all
>>>>>>> problems in the region. Community oversight and long discussions on meta
>>>>>>> talk pages about any huge amount of grant proposals are now a thing of the
>>>>>>> past. But who cares?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlike the previous wiki conferences, the wider Indian community did
>>>>>>> not get the invitation and space to actively take part in the decision
>>>>>>> making process from the very start of planning this conference which led to
>>>>>>> giving room to WMF staffs, who took over. Without community vigilance, a 3
>>>>>>> days conference asked and spent 3 times more donation money than the last
>>>>>>> one and has set up precedences of many unwanted things which would burden
>>>>>>> future community programs and events in India. It's not at all surprising
>>>>>>> that even though no one was stopped, but a very few number of volunteers
>>>>>>> from my language community actually applied and participated in the
>>>>>>> conference, even being one of the most active community in the region.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 00:53 Subhashish <psubhashish(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I find this email better worded than the other one in this list a
>>>>>>>> few days back which was also about different issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of these issues, though I'm not personally aware of, certainly
>>>>>>>> need to be addressed by WMF.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for upholding the importance of the community by saying
>>>>>>>> -- "I am okay with WMF staff being paid, but it should not undermine unpaid
>>>>>>>> volunteers and the movement's ethos." Can't agree more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I see public listing of WMF staff and contractors both
>>>>>>>> on-wiki [1] and the Foundation's official site, WMF staff in India might
>>>>>>>> mean staff and contractors who are hired both for long-term and short-term
>>>>>>>> and part-time roles. It could also mean those who play global roles (say,
>>>>>>>> engineering staffers) but reside in India and don't necessarily interface
>>>>>>>> only with the India-based community. Their participation in a national
>>>>>>>> level event could be an one-off thing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But those nuances apart, the volunteer and staff dynamics certainly
>>>>>>>> is a topic worth discussing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A worse social phenomenon in India is a foreigner being treated
>>>>>>>> with more dignity than a local. The intersectionality of caste, gender,
>>>>>>>> fluency in English, intergenerational privilege and many other social
>>>>>>>> factors play a role. I still think this is not a standalone issue and
>>>>>>>> should be discussed (and investigated if needed) keeping in mind the
>>>>>>>> intersectionality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_staff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 11:09 PM Jayantilal Kothari <
>>>>>>>> jayantilalkkd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to request more
>>>>>>>>> transparency about the roles and responsibilities of WMF staff in India. I
>>>>>>>>> am assuming good faith and believe that any issues arising are
>>>>>>>>> unintentional; however, these occurrences seem to be negatively impacting
>>>>>>>>> the overall movement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It has come to my attention that WMF allocates a relatively small
>>>>>>>>> amount of funds to the Indian community. This implies that a significant
>>>>>>>>> portion of donor money is spent on staff, making it crucial to ensure that
>>>>>>>>> donors and the Wiki community are aware of how the funds are being utilized
>>>>>>>>> and the impact generated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Firstly, I have noticed that WMF hires non-community staff members
>>>>>>>>> who may be initially unfamiliar with the Wikimedia community and movement
>>>>>>>>> in general. This is not an issue as long as newly recruited staff members
>>>>>>>>> are willing to work collaboratively with the community, rather than
>>>>>>>>> competing with them. Unfortunately, there have been instances where this
>>>>>>>>> has not been the case, such as WMF India staff paying Instagram users
>>>>>>>>> without consulting the community, and the recent WikiConference India,
>>>>>>>>> where WMF staff overshadowed volunteer committees and took over volunteer
>>>>>>>>> roles during conference planning.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Initially, I thought that privacy concerns might be the reason
>>>>>>>>> behind the lack of transparency. However, during the recent conference, I
>>>>>>>>> observed that such staff members were comfortable being on stage and being
>>>>>>>>> identified as WMF Staff amongst friends from the industry whom they invited
>>>>>>>>> to the conference. It appears that more people from the industry are aware
>>>>>>>>> of WMF India staff's existence than the community itself. Some staff
>>>>>>>>> members were keen to take credit for the entire movement and even
>>>>>>>>> conference planning in front of the volunteer community and friends from
>>>>>>>>> the industry. It might help and advance the careers of WMF India staff by
>>>>>>>>> showcasing WikiConference India on their resumes, but the main purpose of
>>>>>>>>> such community events is to give a chance to community leadership and to
>>>>>>>>> celebrate unpaid community members. I am okay with WMF staff being paid,
>>>>>>>>> but it should not undermine unpaid volunteers and the movement's ethos.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Wiki community looks up to WMF staff for support, but now
>>>>>>>>> there is a fear that WMF staff may hijack community programs and stages,
>>>>>>>>> with WikiConference India being a recent example.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the roles and
>>>>>>>>> responsibilities of WMF India staff members and their interactions with
>>>>>>>>> volunteer communities. The Wiki community is dedicated to the mission and
>>>>>>>>> will continue to thrive even without WMF staff. I believe it is crucial for
>>>>>>>>> WMF to publicly share the roles, responsibilities, and outcomes of the WMF
>>>>>>>>> India staff over the last few years. This transparency will enable
>>>>>>>>> community members and donors to appreciate the efforts of WMF India staff,
>>>>>>>>> as currently, the impact of their work remains unknown.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I kindly request that WMF provides a list of all WMF India staff
>>>>>>>>> members and their achievements, so we can celebrate their accomplishments
>>>>>>>>> and collaborate with them more effectively.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looking forward to your response.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Jayantilal
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jayantilal
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jayantilal
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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>>
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>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Jayantilal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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