Virgilio A. P. Machado wrote:
> I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the
> Portuguese community can see a problem" unless
> one personal opinion should be considered proof.
>
> The statement was not about anybody outside the
> Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that
> "the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that
> is being addressed here corroborates that
> statement. Examples of previous discussions were
> also provided spanning a period of five years. No
> evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e.,
> that the issue does not keep popping up.
>
There is also clear evidence that the community
within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good
handle on the issue, for all that the fomentation
around the European Portuguese issue seems to be
perennial.
> If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about
> nothing" that might be because appearances can be
> deceiving and burring your head in the sand or
> looking the other way will not make any existing
> problems go away, although everybody is entitled
> to ignore them. That's a very common attitude
> when the problems are not at your doorstep,
> although there's always the danger that they will
> eventually get there. Again, the very fact that
> this discussion is taking place here is a symptom
> that there is a fuss about something.
>
>
To me it seems that the great majority of people
who are themselves on the Portuguese wikipedia
do not think raising this issue time and again is
a useful pastime. Thus the issue of whether you are
or are not Portuguese language speaking yourself,
seems to me a moot point.
> No statements were made concerning the creation
> or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to
> know that someone believes that "the wider
> Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki
> solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such
> a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about
> the specific needs of specific projects. Until
> the problems and needs are properly accessed it
> is premature to dismiss any alternative solution.
>
>
I'll agree that "two-wiki solution" in this connection
is very poor phrasing. Adding a European Portuguese
only wikipedia wouldn't be a solution, and it wouldn't
be "two-wiki", since I believe there currently exist
*at least* two wikipedias relating to the Portuguese
language grouping, namely Portuguese and Galician.
The issue is really whether how to discern the degree
of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects,
including not only European and Brazilian but the
African, creole Portuguese etc, and which can not
reasonably be expected to be able to contribute
within the default Portuguese wikipedia.
One does not need to dismiss a proposed solution,
to point out the inherent problems with it. And
creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia
would create many problems, of such weight, that
though not dismissing the concept as a theoretical
possibility, it is easy to weigh the pros and the cons,
and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a
very problematic "solution".
My personal evaluation tends to be that an European
only wikipedia is not a good solution, though I am not
sure about the African Portuguese or the Creole Portuguese
cases -- purely because I have not at all studied
the issues with those. I would agree that there is still
perhaps too much resistance towards creating
separate wikipedias for creoles, dialects and the
like -- in the general case -- though I don't think a
European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where
it is ideally justified.
Yours,
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
This is a very interesting suggestion and the recognition that it is
important to remove tensions is very commendable.
Unfortunately I haven't heard of any plans for Cyrillic to be adopted
to write Portuguese. Now consider that Latin characters were use by
200 million people and Cyrillic by 20 million. If you were someone
who reads and writes in Cyrillic, would you like to use an
encyclopedia where you might find 10 articles written with Latin
characters for each one written in Cyrillic? Wouldn't you say there
might be trend for both Cyrillic readers and writers to abandon that
encyclopedia? Would you consider that a desirable outcome?
Suppose, furthermore, that the 20 million Cyrillic readers and
writers can also read and write in Latin characters, but the opposite
is not true. That is, the 200 million readers and writers who use
Latin characters have a lot of trouble reading and/or writing in
Cyrillic. Would you foresee a long life for Cyrillic articles? Would
you consider that a desirable outcome?
Fortunately we don't have Cyrillic, but you might have started to get
the picture, because the 200 and 20 million are real numbers.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 04:53 23-03-2010, you wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Sir Lestaty de Lioncourt
><wikimedia.lestaty(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yep, if you start a article in one version, this article must be continued
> > in that version, but this is not a problem for the community (in the past
> > yes, now no).
>
>At sr.wp we use the same rule in relation to writing articles in
>Cyrillic or Latin, Ekavian or Iyekavian, and even for transcription of
>foreign names or not. That rule removed a lot of tensions.
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam(a)fct.unl.pt
Engenharia
Industrial
http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/
DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531
Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461
2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567
PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500
Ext.112-32
96-577-3726
Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
(Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the
School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
It is gratifying to know that someone is so sure that different
dialects of Portuguese are mutually intelligible. I speak more than
one language and have never able to understand all native speakers of
any language both in speech and writing. How dumb of me.
Blind non-interventionist policies have spelled disaster for
countless minorities, but some people will get a better feeling for
it when Spanish becomes the language of the majority of US citizens,
as they already are when that is happening in their town, county or state.
I understand that the topic started with a suggestion to create "a
new version of Wikipedia in Portuguese from Portugal", but I can't
fail to notice that, for the wider Wikimedia community, avoiding to
address any of problems of the Portuguese Wikipedia, might be very
convenient to keep it where it is, mired in problems. We all have
problems of our own, right? Why bother?
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 20:49 22-03-2010, you wrote:
>On 22 March 2010 20:24, Marcus Buck <me(a)marcusbuck.org> wrote:
> > I hope you speak Portuguese. Cause decisions like this should be made by
> > people who know the language variants and their differences and not by
> > outsiders. Leave the decision to the speakers of Portuguese. Anyway it
> > seems that the majority of speakers does not want to split. Outsiders
> > can assist by giving advice. E.g. how to minimize the problems that
> > arise from the differences. But outsiders shouldn't impose decisions on
> > the community.
>
>I don't speak Portuguese, but that doesn't stop me knowing that
>different dialects of it are mutually intelligible. What happens with
>the existing project is a matter for that project's community, but the
>creation of a new project is a matter for the wider Wikimedia
>community.
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam(a)fct.unl.pt
Engenharia
Industrial
http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/
DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531
Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461
2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567
PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500
Ext.112-32
96-577-3726
Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
(Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the
School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
On 22 March 2010 19:01, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt> wrote:
> Perhaps the reason the issue keeps popping up is
> that, although it has been extensively
> «discussed», it has not been properly addressed, much less solved.
I think the reason it has never been addressed is that nobody outside
the Portuguese community can see a problem. It all seems to be a lot
of fuss about nothing. That means the wider Wikimedia community will
never accept a two-wiki solution and the most obvious one-wiki
solution is the one used by the English Wikipedia, namely: stop
complaining and just write encyclopaedia articles. We're not going to
indulge a community engaged in a childish argument about nothing.
I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the
Portuguese community can see a problem" unless
one personal opinion should be considered proof.
The statement was not about anybody outside the
Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that
"the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that
is being addressed here corroborates that
statement. Examples of previous discussions were
also provided spanning a period of five years. No
evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e.,
that the issue does not keep popping up.
If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about
nothing" that might be because appearances can be
deceiving and burring your head in the sand or
looking the other way will not make any existing
problems go away, although everybody is entitled
to ignore them. That's a very common attitude
when the problems are not at your doorstep,
although there's always the danger that they will
eventually get there. Again, the very fact that
this discussion is taking place here is a symptom
that there is a fuss about something.
No statements were made concerning the creation
or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to
know that someone believes that "the wider
Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki
solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such
a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about
the specific needs of specific projects. Until
the problems and needs are properly accessed it
is premature to dismiss any alternative solution.
Thank you so much for suggesting the "one-wiki
solution [...] used by the English Wikipedia,
namely: stop complaining and just write
encyclopaedia articles." Assuming that you'll
follow your own advice, your contributions to a
constructive dialog will be sorely missed.
Indulgence can be an act of tolerance, a moderate
form of respect, which is the basis for
non-discrimination. As for childish arguments
about nothing, there is something to be said for
someone that bothered to address them. It is an
example to be followed. If you do not engage
youngsters in rational conversation often enough,
even if it is about nothing, they might grow up
to become rude adults or total morons.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 19:50 22-03-2010, you wrote:
>On 22 March 2010 19:01, Virgilio A. P. Machado
><vam(a)fct.unl.pt> wrote: > Perhaps the reason the
>issue keeps popping up is > that, although it
>has been extensively > «discussed», it has not
>been properly addressed, much less solved. I
>think the reason it has never been addressed is
>that nobody outside the Portuguese community can
>see a problem. It all seems to be a lot of fuss
>about nothing. That means the wider Wikimedia
>community will never accept a two-wiki solution
>and the most obvious one-wiki solution is the
>one used by the English Wikipedia, namely: stop
>complaining and just write encyclopaedia
>articles. We're not going to indulge a community
>engaged in a childish argument about nothing.
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam(a)fct.unl.pt
Engenharia
Industrial
http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/
DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531
Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461
2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567
PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500
Ext.112-32
96-577-3726
Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
(Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the
School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
skype: node.ue
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Manuel Coutinho <info(a)maccoutinho.com>
Date: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:28 AM
Subject: Pt-Portuguese Wikipedia
To: node.ue(a)gmail.com
Dear Node,
It has come to my attention quite some time ago that the Portuguese version
of wikipedia is being overrun with articles written in Brazilian Portuguese,
some of which I have corrected myself but the problem has, long since grown
out of control.
I'm writting to suggest the creation of a new version of wikipedia in
Portuguese from Portugal, in an attempt to provide Portuguese users with
articles written in their correct version of the dialect.
I don't know why this hasn't been already implemented since the language
options on the control panel when you create a new wikipedia user create
that distinction already.
I hope that you take this under consideration and provide me with the
guidelines to start this project.
I'm sure that i will be able to find supporters that are willing to start
the process of translating already existing articles as well as creating new
ones.
Thank you very much.
Yours trully,
Manuel A. C. Coutinho
Designer de Comunicação
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
InstantDesign* Comunicação e Equipamento
www.instdesign.com
T +351 93 479 90 66
info(a)instdesign.com
For those not reading WikiEN-l that actually want the forwarded
message to be included. ;)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: William Pietri <william(a)scissor.com>
Date: 20 March 2010 23:22
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Flagged Protection: ready for more testing
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Hi! On behalf of the FlaggedRevs team, I'd like to announce that Flagged
Protection, the proposed use of Flagged Revisions on the English
Wikipedia, is ready for more testing. We have made a number of changes
to improve clarity and usability for both novices and experienced editors.
If you have an hour or two to devote to testing it, we'd love your
thoughts. You need not jump in immediately; we'll be posting updates
every week or so. But we'd like it to be in the best shape possible for
the upcoming trial. Since we've been working without feedback for too
long, I expect this first week or two will be bumpy, but bumps now are
preferable to bumps later, so bear with us.
To check it out, start here:
http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
There's space for questions and discussion on the labs site, and I also
welcome direct email and talk page questions.
Thanks,
William
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Ever since Mark Williamson posted the message
from Manuel Coutinho suggesting the creation of a
new version of Wikipedia in Portuguese from
Portugal, I have wondered if this list is the
best place to discuss this matter.
This is a very serious and recurring issue:
2005:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Brazili…
2006:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_new_languages/Archives/200…
2007:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Europea…
It also causes a lot of conflicts and animosity.
There are heated discussions, with passionate and
inflammatory statements that lead to exaggeration and uncorroborated «truths».
Perhaps the reason the issue keeps popping up is
that, although it has been extensively
«discussed», it has not been properly addressed, much less solved.
Perhaps the question is not the creation of a new
version of Wikipedia, but to make the Portuguese
Wikipedia appealing to all readers and writers
(editors) of the Portuguese language. There might
be solutions and proposals to address this
problem which have been kept from seeing the light of day, for untold reasons.
It might be worthwhile to open a page where the
discussion could be centralized. It would be nice
if the page could be bilingual, with one section
in English, to open the discussion to the wider
Wikimedia community, and another in Portuguese,
for those who lack enough command of the English
language to participate in the broader discussion.
If anyone would be so kind as to suggest what
that page might be and where it could be created,
I would be more than happy to participate. Some
statements have already been made in this list that require clarification.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
What's going on over at Wikiversity? Jimmy Wales has now been threatened
with a block by someone who seems to be an admin in good standing, and he
responds that he has "the full support of the Wikimedia Foundation". Is
this true? What does it mean?
Wales also has said that he is "discussing closure of Wikiversity with the
board". Is there a public place where this is being debated, or is this all
being done behind the scenes? Is it even true that this discussion is
taking place?
I'm sorry if I'm repeating some discussion that's already been had, but I
checked the archives and I couldn't find anything.
http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=545…http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Wikimedia_Ethic…