Hi. At Spanish Wikipedia we want to open a new mailing list, a Spanish
equivalent of daily-article-l.
(See http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/daily-article-l)
The idea is to have only one sender and many receivers. The frequency
won't be daily (we don't rotate our main page featured article that
often) but bi-weekly.
Personally I think it's an excellent idea. It will disseminate knowledge
and attract contributors.
I would like to know if there is any opposition, and, if not, where can
we arrange for that mailing list to be created.
Thanks for your time.
--
> Your request to the Mediation-en-l mailing list
>
> Subscription request
>
> has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the
> following reason for rejecting your request:
>
> "[No reason given]"
>
>
> As you can see not all mailing lists are open.
>
> Darko
>
Well, probably the WMF board has it's own closed mailing-list, as well as OTRS. But to be more precise, I'm not referring to mailing-lists set up for technical purposes, but to mailing-lists open to discussion for specific groups (like "pepole coming from Omicron Persei VII").
If WMF allow this there are 2 choices:
1. allow any request for mailing-lists (like the one for "pepole coming from Omicron Persei IX")
2. decide for every single request. This means set up a commitee that decides who can have a mailing-list and who can't, with all the subsequent discussions because some requests will be dismissed.
Especially in the second case, the WMF will discriminate on race, sex, religion, etc.
Roberto (Snowdog)
------------------------------------------------------
Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui
http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06
> Besides the opposition from some to having this hosted here, there's also:
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Non_discrimination_policy
>
> "The Wikimedia Foundation prohibits discrimination against current or
> prospective users and employees on the basis of race, color, gender, religion,
> national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation, or any other legally
> protected characteristics."
>
> -- Matt
That was my point. I just think that a Foundation that promotes projects "that anyone can edit" should not, in any case, maintain mailing lists "that only a group of people can access". And this holds true for "any" group, regardless of its composition.
That's far from being against WikiChicks or WikiWhaterver.
Roberto (Snowdog)
------------------------------------------------------
Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui
http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06
[snip]
> From the day I heard Angela was on the board because she had big boobs
[snip]
Huh!?! Really? Where does she hide 'em?
But seriously, I would like to understand if opening such a list will entitle other groups (based on gender, race, political or religious belief, and alikes) who feel Wikipedia has a bias "against" them to ask WMF to open a dedicated list.
Roberto (Snowdog)
------------------------------------------------------
Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui
http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06
[snip]
> You think trying to make a joke excuses comments like that?
[snip]
No, but it was so "on topic"!
[snip]
>It's exactly these sorts of comments, yes these sorts
> of "jokes", that create what is known as a hostile work
> environment and can lead to sexual harassment lawsuits.
[snip]
In the US for sure. Luckily enough, I live in a place where this sort of "jokes" just set the tone for the reply.
My apologies to Angela, anyway. It's not my fault. I've a gender bias and a cultural bias. Both hard to eradicate.
Roberto (Snowdog)
------------------------------------------------------
Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui
http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06
[snip]
> Also, it is not necessary to ask the community for anything. You should
> have noticed that these ladies are quite capable organising what is
> needed themselves. They do not need me or you to get a mailing list, a
> chat channel, their own wiki. I would also suggest that it is not for
> the community to agree or endorse. There is a need. What is perceived to
> be needed has been organised and we, the community, have been informed.
>
> Thanks,
> GerardM
Yes exactly, any given group can set up it's own communication channel, and does not need to ask the community. But if the foundation open one of this channels, the foundation will have to deal with similar requests and potentially face problems if one of this requests is turned down.
Because WikiChicks is a WMF mailing list, right? Or di I misunderstood something?
Roberto (Snowdog)
------------------------------------------------------
Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui
http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06
In the spirit of announcing a mailing list for women, I would like to
announce a wiki and message board for the youth (20 and under) of wiki
communities. Below is our announcement letter / about page, since I feel it
bests describe the mission and I'll be darned if I make a redundant message.
Are you an advocate of youth rights on the Internet?
Have you ever used or edited a wiki, such as the world-famous Wikipedia?
Then we want you to join the Wiki Youth Movement.
http://www.wikiyouth.org/
Wikis like Wikipedia allow young people everywhere to share knowledge, ideas
and experiences. But wherever young people use the Internet, they are faced
with reactionary and condescending views. Fearful adults try to regulate the
content they can see and the communities they can contribute to. The Wiki
Youth Association seeks to give young readers, users and editors a voice.
Beyond demanding equal treatment as wiki contributors, our goal is to build
a shared understanding of wiki ethics. Vandalism and immature behavior are
condemned on most wikis, and sensible learning approaches for new wiki users
are encouraged. We want to have fun, but not at the expense of others. We
want to help you to understand the maze of wiki-rules, so that you too can
have fun.
We would also like to give intelligent young people a shared social space
where they can talk about their experiences in not only wiki communities,
but also their daily lives. eventually, we hope that we can develop the WYA
into a true social movement which organizes events and campaigns. But our
initial goals are modest: we only want to become the single largest
world-wide community of young wiki users.
The WYA is not a formal organization. There is no membership other than
registration for our wiki and forums.
Join today!
Hello.
On 12/4/06, Matt R <matt_crypto(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Angela,
>
> Any idea to make Wikipedia a more comfortable place for people to get
> involved
> is a worthy one, and I support a forum for editors to discuss issues of
> gender
> bias in wikis, to promote wikis to potential female editors, and for
> general
> discussion of wikis in a female-friendly environment.
>
> However, I have to confess to being unhappy with the existence of an
> officially-endorsed *females-only* mailing list and wiki. Discussion isn't
> enabled by segregating the people who should be talking to each other
> about a
> problem, and I do not think Wikipedia should be in the business of
> excluding
> people from discussions because of their gender. WikiChix can still be
> made a
> female-friendly forum by use of moderation.
>
> Ubuntu Women say, "Ubuntu-Women is not about segregation of women, rather
> its
> goal is to integrate women as equals within the mainstream development
> going on
> in the Ubuntu world. Remember, membership is open to all and not based on
> gender alone. If you want to increase diversity and encourage women in
> Linux
> please don't hesitate to speak to us."
>
> I urge you to follow their example, but otherwise keep up the good work,
>
> -- Matt
>
I fully support this opinion. Although this have surely been done in good
faith, I refuse to consider segregation as a good solution to a problem.
--
Guillaume Paumier
Disciplus Simplex
http://fr.wikipedia.org : Resistance is futile — You will be assimilated.
On 12/4/06, Kat Walsh <mindspillage(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/4/06, Matt R <matt_crypto(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Any idea to make Wikipedia a more comfortable place for people to get
> involved
> > is a worthy one, and I support a forum for editors to discuss issues of
> gender
> > bias in wikis, to promote wikis to potential female editors, and for
> general
> > discussion of wikis in a female-friendly environment.
> >
> > However, I have to confess to being unhappy with the existence of an
> > officially-endorsed *females-only* mailing list and wiki. Discussion
> isn't
> > enabled by segregating the people who should be talking to each other
> about a
> > problem, and I do not think Wikipedia should be in the business of
> excluding
> > people from discussions because of their gender. WikiChix can still be
> made a
> > female-friendly forum by use of moderation.
> >
> > Ubuntu Women say, "Ubuntu-Women is not about segregation of women,
> rather its
> > goal is to integrate women as equals within the mainstream development
> going on
> > in the Ubuntu world. Remember, membership is open to all and not based
> on
> > gender alone. If you want to increase diversity and encourage women in
> Linux
> > please don't hesitate to speak to us."
> >
> > I urge you to follow their example, but otherwise keep up the good work,
>
> I second this completely.
>
> -Kat
Yes, on second thought I'm not happy with the list being female-only either;
though that's perhaps a discussion to have on the new list itself.
Moderation and a commitment to the discussion at hand seems like it would do
the trick.
-- phoebe
On 12/4/06, Tim Starling <tstarling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> Oldak Quill wrote:
> > Such a list seems to encourage a sense of difference where there isn't
> > one. It will also discourage some women from contributing to the
> > general discussion ("why post in two places when I can post here?").
>
> This view, and several others like it, are discussed in depth in the
> FLOSSPOLS gender report:
>
>
> http://flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integrated_Report_of…
>
> On page 20:
>
> "Some people - both men and women - interpret the mere mention of gender
> as
> somehow 'reiterating' the 'artificial' differences between the sexes [...]
> "
>
> "However, our study also found that the attitude of some of the male
> F/LOSS
> participants towards women creates an atmosphere which can be described at
> least as not women-friendly.
> "Whereas most hackers see themselves as neither sexist nor hostile towards
> women there is a clear distinction on how women and men perceive and
> experience interaction within the F/LOSS community."
>
> They present survey results showing that women perceive a bias in open
> source communities whereas men do not. They go on to discuss why this is.
> Most of their findings are framed in a way specific to open source
> software,
> but they could easily be extended to this forum. The primary issue of
> relevance to mailing lists and communication is flaming. Men are much more
> tolerant of it than women. Says Susan Herring in "Gender and Power in
> Online
> Communication":
>
> http://rkcsi.indiana.edu/archive/CSI/WP/WP01-05B.html
>
> "Politeness is one common means through which gender is cued in
> asynchronous
> CMC. Women are more likely to thank, appreciate and apologize, and to be
> upset by violations of politeness: they more often challenge offenders who
> violate online rules of conduct (Smith et al., 1997), and predominantly
> female groups may have more, and more strictly enforced, posting rules
> designed to ensure the maintenance of a civil environment (Hall, 1996;
> Herring, 1996a). In contrast, men generally appear to be less concerned
> with
> politeness; they issue bald face-threatening acts such as unmitigated
> criticisms and insults, violate online rules of conduct, tolerate or even
> enjoy 'flaming', and tend to be more concerned about threats to freedom of
> expression than with attending to others' social "face" (Herring, 1994,
> 1996a, 1999)."
Thanks for the report links, Tim; very interesting.
Knowing all this, an optimistic man may try to change everyone's mind on the
> importance of good behaviour and civility, and to create a forum where
> both
> men and women can participate comfortably. Wikipedia itself was started
> with
> such ideals in mind (e.g. "WikiLove"). But my experience has led me to be
> more jaded.
>
> I support Wikichix, in the hopes that it may become a platform for women
> to
> discuss the implicit bias against them in male-dominated wikis, in a forum
> where they won't be subjected to instant incredulity and attack, as they
> have been in this thread. I hope that they will be able to formulate and
> promote guidelines for non-discrimination, for application at mixed wikis
> such as Wikipedia. In the meantime, while they're waiting for these
> guidelines to be accepted by the community at large, Wikichix may be able
> to
> expound the problem and discuss coping strategies, so that they can more
> confidently participate in the present-day wiki culture.
>
> -- Tim Starling
Indeed. Though I just heard about the new list with this message, it makes
sense; gender bias is an issue that many of us see as being present in the
projects, and it will be nice to have a place to discuss it without every
substantive message being followed by twenty posts saying "omg there's no
bias what are you talking about!" It doesn't seem much different than other
topical lists, which perhaps we need a few more of in general to sort out
this kind of big-picture discussions. I would hope that any good discussion,
conclusion or recommendation will also get discussed on the appropriate
"big" Foundation lists when needed, and I'm sure as the new list sorts
itself out this kind of communication will develop.
And Gerard's point upthread that we need to show more consideration for
everyone is perhaps well taken. It's not just many women who may find a lot
of discussions around here distasteful; it's also a great number of people
who don't want to deal with incivility and general stupidness. This may
include a number of expert contributors or others who would be a help to the
projects and should be welcomed.
phoebe (a female person, longtime list reader but rare poster)