On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
Christiaan complained:
Just to clarify, I never argued that these people
died and suffered
_because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has
extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership
feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite
(imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.).
Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to
light.
If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals,
please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western
ideals with Western actions.
Well, its good advice, but my point wasn't to tell you all why I think
the West falls short of its rhetoric. My point was simply to make
people aware that at least some of us find comments such as Geoff's
ethnocentric and offensive. People can take from that what they like;
that an intense discussion ensued is not surprising but it wasn't my
aim.
If that was your intent, then you failed miserably, Christiaan. All that
your emails communicated to me was that you have a poor opinion about
Western Civilization, & have expressed it so vehemently & uncompromisingly
that I don't see any point in responding to what you have to say. Or even
reading it.
If you go back & read what I wrote, you will see that I showed an awareness
that not everyone might agree with me. And I attempted to express myself
in a way that any reasonable person would not find offensive -- or at least
not say things like "Who the hell do you think you are?"
And then when I read your stated belief that:
I never argued that these people died and suffered
_because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has
extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership
feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite
(imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.)
I'm left with an unclear sense how you want us to react. If these ideals
are nothing more than opiates to distract us from the fact we members of
Western Civilization are wreaking evil upon the rest of the world, then
should we dispense with our collective denial & destroy every trace of
our culture & kill ourselves in hope that will cleanse the earth of our
crimes? Or should we simply all accept that we are little better than
thugs & Storm Troopers, & instead take pride in how we oppress & exploit
other peoples & nations?
I am not being ironic here: your view of Western Civilization is so
condemning & so extreme that I find nothing I can discuss about it with you.
And frankly, from what I've read that you have written, I don't feel that
you will be happy on Wikipedia because there are many people contributing
to Wikipedia who will be praising the ideals, products, & other results
of Western Civilization far more fulsomely -- & most likely more fluently --
than I will ever do.
And as a last point, find another word than "ethnocentric" to apply to
what I have asserted. The word "ethnocentric" means to "hold one's
race
as superior to all others" -- & I feel your use of this word accuses me
of being racist. That I am clearly not, & except for throwing this word
about, you have failed to show that I am so -- unless somehow by my
definition of "Western Civilization" you believe that I have excluded
non-Caucasian members of this culture such as Asian Americans, Black
British, French of North African origin, & countless more groups I could
recount. And one could only believe that by abusively misinterpreting
what I have written.
Geoff