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Exactly, Bryan.
And I still maintain that it is significantly more bother to the
list to have the same thread repeatedly quoted with an ever-
increasing amount of >'s than the 5-8 added lines of PGP
code–but that's just my own opinion.
Avi
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On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM, <wikien-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen(a)shaw.ca>
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:01:47 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----?
>
> PGP needs that line at the top to indicate where the verified text begins.
> If PGP doesn't check exactly the same chunk of text that was signed it'll
> fail to verify, sort of like how earlier in this thread someone was
> complaining about a mail client that had added a single space to an
> encrypted block of text which resulted in the whole message being broken.
>
--
en:User:Avraham
----
pub 1024D/785EA229 3/6/2007 Avi (Wikipedia-related) <aviwiki(a)gmail.com>
Primary key fingerprint: D233 20E7 0697 C3BC 4445 7D45 CBA0 3F46 785E A229
Steve Summit wrote:
> Just so. We should remember that "notability", and our
> attempts to objectify it via reference to second-party
> reliable sources, are only means to an end. The end goal is:
> utility to our readers. Get hung up on notability if you like,
> but the encyclopedic inclusivity criterion I like to use is,
> "Might someone ever look this up and expect/want/need to find
> this information?
Surely WP:IINFO applies here, however? Wikipedia cannot be an all-inclusive
cornucopia of useful tidbits of information. Adding a plethora of stubs
which feature little more than co-ordinates, a region link and a map
thumbnail are effective going to make Wikipedia an online map searching
facility.
----- Original Message ----
From: Delirium <delirium(a)hackish.org>
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 11:10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] User:FritzpollBot creating millions of new
Nathan wrote:
> For Michel's email to be followed up by Mark's email is almost too much. Was
> that planned?
>
Although we're both talking about lists, we're talking about somewhat
different things. He's objecting to the listification of, for example,
episodes of TV series and characters in movies, when we actually do have
enough to at least write a short paragraph on each---instead they get
merged into a huge article with a bunch of one- and two-paragraph
sections. He objects to proposals to do this for cities as well.
I tend to be a bit of an inclusionist so I also object to that---if
there's enough to write at least a small paragraph I'd prefer a separate
article. But I also think it's a bit silly to article-ify what is
literally a single line in a 3-element table. If we want to do that, I
could easily create tens of thousands of articles just by expanding our
redlink lists automatically. In addition to lists of officeholders,
virtually any article on a family or genus of living thing, for example,
could have all its redlink species lists expanded out into stubs saying:
'''''Genus species''''', commonly known as '''common name''', is a
species of [[general type]]. But what good would this mass creation do
anything except the article count? If all we have is a list of species
of ''genus'', with their binomial name and common name, and nothing
else, why not just put the list in the article on the genus as a redlist
and wait until we get some more information to write separate articles?
Now if we had a stubbish but not just-database-entry article on each of
those minor species, I'd oppose an unnecessary merge into [[List of
minor passerine bird species]] or something, which is another matter.
-Mark
Wikipedia does have stubs with just about that little information on species or less information in the case of plants which seldom have common names. And they're being created largely by bots from databases.
Blechnic
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Steve Summit <scs(a)eskimo.com> writes in Message-ID:
<2008Jun02.0717.scs.0003(a)eskimo.com>
> Mark Nilrad wrote:
>> Steve Summit <scs(a)eskimo.com> wrote:
>>> bobolozo wrote:
>>>> A small fishing village in Cambodia, or a community of 100 people
>>>> in Kenya, may well have no internet access at all, and if they
>>>> have it, they would not likely be visiting the English wikipedia
>>>> as they wouldn't likely speak English.
>>>
>>> Hmm. By the same token, I guess we shouldn't have articles
>>> on [[Troy], [[Pompeii]], [[Neolithic Europe]], [[Xanadu]],
>>> [[Atlantis]], or [[Mars]].
>>
>> You're missing the point. I think anyone can agree that Troy
>> and Pompeii have much more global significance than X fishing
>> village, Cambodia.
>
> Um, no, you missed my point. Arguing about notability or "global
> significance" is one thing. But it makes no sense to bring up
> the question of whether the location of an article has Internet
> access, or how many people there might speak English.
Hallelujah! Notability is a set of crufty guideline and no more. "When
you wonder what should or should not be in [wikipedia], ask yourself
what a reader would expect to find under the same heading in an
*encyclopedia*."
Now I haven't seen a print Britannica in years, but as I remember it
there were one (or more) gazetteer volumes, page after page of places
with coordinates. If all the bot does is add 2 million stubs, aka
gazetteer entries, that's fine. I'd expect a non-paper encyclopedia to
have a bloody huge list of places, inhabited or otherwise possibly of
use to readers. If 10% of them are expanded into "proper" encyclopedia
articles, that's fine too, we're 200K real articles to the better.
Yes, there are lots of questions to answer about data quality and
implementation details, but as far as I can see, this is a win, win
deal. Creating even gazetteer-quality geostubs from scratch is quite
time consuming. Even translating place stubs from another language is
not all that simple thanks to all the template discrepancies and the
fact that administrative district X has a different name. Let a bot do
the scut work. That's what they are for.
Angus
When you have an issue you cannot solve who do you go to? DR process isn't
helping and my problem is with the DR as I consider it to be broken.
I want to be able to get a problem I see addressed and fixed. I want to deal
with this without being constantly accused of random things.
I currently lack such a median and am open to suggestions.
- White Cat
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In my opinion as well, it is much more annoying to have to
scroll through multiple copies of the entire digest, or over-
long threads, as opposed to the privacy headers. Personally, I
prefer the in-line ASCII headers as opposed to the MIME
attachments, as for those of us subscribed in digest mode, it is
often hard to match the signature to the text. At least in the
clearsigned version, that's obvious.
White Cat, you share this list with many others, many of whom
value both their privacy and the ability to confirm their wiki
identities when necessary.
Avi
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From: "White Cat" <wikipedia.kawaii.neko(a)gmail.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 21:38:28 +0300
Subject: [WikiEN-l] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----?
Some emails start and end with "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----", can
people please disable that thing when emailing mailing lists. It looks quite
ugly.
- White Cat
--
en:User:Avraham
----
pub 1024D/785EA229 3/6/2007 Avi (Wikipedia-related) <aviwiki(a)gmail.com>
Primary key fingerprint: D233 20E7 0697 C3BC 4445 7D45 CBA0 3F46 785E A229
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7428104.stm
"Q: If Wikipedia can stay free of advertising why can't the BBC? The
worst decision the Trust has made, in my view."
(I must note that I personally don't object to ads on Wikipedia, but I
do think it would be a public relations disaster externally as well as
internally, and should be avoided as hard as we can. I'm posting the
above for anecdotal interest.)
- d.
Some emails start and end with "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----", can
people please disable that thing when emailing mailing lists. It looks quite
ugly.
- White Cat
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best*
I was eating and talking about chicken when I composed that. Sorry.
Best,
Jon
- -------- Original Message --------
Message-ID: <483F3C10.30308(a)datascreamer.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:28:16 -0500
From: Jon <scream(a)datascreamer.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----?
References:
<27ee9bfb0805291533u66e7883g20c12a09c911545a(a)mail.gmail.com>
<a3f807830805291600k623d12c9je669f355a1fbe69d(a)mail.gmail.com>
<483F35D1.3070509(a)datascreamer.com>
<a3f807830805291605g42218915h7b7a0cb7785402cf(a)mail.gmail.com>
<7c865bab0805291610k54f86d4dw4858092c695e88f3(a)mail.gmail.com>
<483F38A9.5070102(a)datascreamer.com>
<a3f807830805291618o314f2976hc0b9da5a1326d566(a)mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <a3f807830805291618o314f2976hc0b9da5a1326d566(a)mail.gmail.com>
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White Cat wrote:
> I really do not see the point at all.
> - White Cat
>
Fall back on that we all share this list :) and some if not most use
PGP. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Very breast,
Jon
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See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#User:Fr…
A bot has been approved to create articles on every
place in the world which doesn't have an article yet,
predicted to be about 2 million new stub articles.
There is some question as to whether or not this is a
good idea, as it would double our number of articles
within a few months, perhaps mess up Special:Random,
and most of the new articles would forever be tiny
stubs. There are suggestions that perhaps the bot
could be limited to towns of a certain population
size, or perhaps the tiny villages could be combined
into lists instead of each having its own article.
I'm not arguing for or against this, just bringing it
up here. If there are any concerns, speak now before
the bot begins.