Thanks Milan, This makes sense _if_ the wiki is set up to allow edits by registered users only - however many aren't setup this way (I'm not sure statistically which is higher). Personally, I think that in general a wiki should be have the same for registered users and non-registered guests except where it's absolutely necessary to draw the line (for example if edits are restricted to users). But that's just my two cents. -- Jim

Thanks Milan, This makes sense _if_ the wiki is set up to allow edits by registered users only - however many aren't setup this way (I'm not sure statistically which is higher). Personally, I think that in general a wiki should be have the same for registered users and non-registered guests except where it's absolutely necessary to draw the line (for example if edits are restricted to users). But that's just my two cents. -- Jim On 4/3/07, Milan Tesovic &lt;milant(a)cg.yu&gt; wrote: > > > I agree. The link whould be red, because > despite its useful when red, > the category MUST be a part of another category, wich contains a > group of > categories. > > On the other side it should take you to the list of articles > allready in > the > category, > instead of the edit the category page. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Virgil Ierubino" &lt;virgil.ierubino(a)gmail.com&gt; > To: &lt;wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;rg>; <mediawiki- > l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] [Foundation-l] Red category link is > unhelpful > > >> Further to this thread (making category links red only if they >> have just > 1 >> member, >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/2007-March/ >> 019259.html), >> and in response to the responses (that changing the colours was >> met with >> disapproval), might I suggest that the colours remain the same, >> but red >> category links simply don't take you to an editing page? >> >> This would solve the main problem I think. The point is that >> categories >> can >> still be used even if they are red, so I want to be able to view a >> category >> (from a link) without it taking me to an edit box. I just want to >> see > the >> members. Everything else about the category remains the same - it is >> classed >> as a wanted page, etc., the link simply just doesn't >> automatically go > into >> editing. I think this solution gets the best of both worlds. >> _______________________________________________ >> MediaWiki-l mailing list >> MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > MediaWiki-l mailing list > MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

On 03/04/07, Virgil Ierubino &lt;virgil.ierubino(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I wonder what kind of arguments it might spark in the user base... Rob Church

I agree with making a MW system message or $wg control this - but which should be the default?  Edit or view?

As a general rule, I think changes that are optional should default to what is current, not what someone thinks is a better option.

As a general rule, I think changes that are optional should default to what is current, not what someone thinks is a better option.

That's a nice assertion, because I don't recall seeing "what is going on with categories?"-type FAQ pertaining to this issue.

A change to the established, existing behaviour, "because we can" will confuse and irritate people who have become accustomed to how MediaWiki "just works", so the default *should* be to continue as normal.

That's a nice assertion, because I don't recall seeing "what is going on with categories?"-type FAQ pertaining to this issue.

A change to the established, existing behaviour, "because we can" will confuse and irritate people who have become accustomed to how MediaWiki "just works", so the default *should* be to continue as normal.

Only if they click on red links more times to create the category pages than to see articles on the inexistent category. If they do the later they're doing an extra click.

However, if it is changed, the red links should be changed to "a different red" to add a visual difference, not only explaining red links on pages do X, red links on category do Y... (then even more confusing if it's reverted).

A similar <s>problem</s>feature which annoys me are red image links. When i click on it i want to go to the image page, where i have nice links to see the delete log, undelete it and know why this image "disappeared".. Not uploading it! (for which the Image: have links, anyway) Alas, "The feature was added for a reason (making it easier and more consistent to upload), and will stay without some good reason."

You get the contents in the edit view for free, so it's one click to do

Two reds? What a nightmare!

Red links lead to edit pages. This is a convention we've established in the user interface, and I don't see a great reason to change it. Sure, it's a bit inconvenient clicking a category name and getting an edit page, but you can still see the contents of the category.

That's why talked about a "different red" :P Of course it doesn't need to be red, as it would be a different class, it can be rand(0, 0xFFFFFF)

That's why talked about a "different red" :P Of course it doesn't need to be red, as it would be a different class, it can be rand(0, 0xFFFFFF)

I do hate to get in the way of a good flame war, though, so everybody feel free to continue fighting unproductively instead. ;)

It's simply true that more often than not, you'll want to just view a red category rather than edit it. It's still a useful page! (Unlike a red

On 04/04/07, Rob Church &lt;robchur(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Quite! Above all, I DO NOT think we should change colours beyond what we have right now: blue and red. That's too beautifully simple to alter. Red links lead to edit pages. This is a convention we've established This is true for a seasoned user, but my proposal has newer users in mind. They clicked on that category link because they wanted to see its members, not for any other reason. If they see an edit box they won't realise the page still functions. They'll think it's a nonexistent page like every other red link. Yknow, if there's a category "People who died in 1845" which no one bothered to write a description for, someone might click it and end up thinking no one died in 1845! As was said by others, this is a matter of balance. Any disadvantages (and I see few) regards this change are so minimal compared to the advantages. It's simply true that more often than not, you'll want to just view a red category rather than edit it. It's still a useful page! (Unlike a red article). Virgil. _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

A similar <s>problem</s>feature which annoys me are red image links. When i click on it i want to go to the image page, where i have nice links to see the delete log, undelete it and know why this image "disappeared".. Not uploading it! (for which the Image: have links, anyway) Alas, "The feature was added for a reason (making it easier and more consistent to upload), and will stay without some good reason."

On 03/04/07, Virgil Ierubino &lt;virgil.ierubino(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I wonder what kind of arguments it might spark in the user base... Rob Church _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Looking at this discussion I still think that the following is a very good no-fuss proposal: Red category links view the category rather than editing the category. This achieves everything that's already there, but also allows new users (or even old ones) to look at category members without passing through an edit page. That can be annoying, time-consuming or very confusing for new editors. Does anyone think this might be a bad move? _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l