Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core))

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Mariya Nedelcheva Miteva

7 Feb 2013 7 Feb '13

10:10 a.m.

A discussion on wikitech-l you might find interesting. Mariya ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jeroen De Dauw <jeroendedauw(a)gmail.com> Date: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Hey, For corporate adoption, the main thing MediaWiki needs is not some

...

particular feature. It needs to be supported. It needs an organisation with people who will care if corporate users are screwed over by a change. It needs community management, so that the features needed by corporate users will be discoverable and well-maintained, rather than developed privately, over and over. And it needs the smallest nudge of promotion, on top of what Wikipedia fans are doing for it. Say, a nice-looking website aimed at this user base. This is not something WMF is interested in doing, that has been made extremely clear in the last year.

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Verhoeven, Peter

8 Feb 8 Feb

1:49 a.m.

New subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core))

Hi, In our Wiki roadmap we are going to move away from Mediawike. Most important feature missing is compartment authorization and searching in scopes. Also too much IT resources are needed for upgrades. The status of extensions and the compatibility with different versions is unclear and a lot of things do not work smoothly with the Windows platform. Regards, Peter Verhoeven From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-enterprise-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mariya Nedelcheva Miteva Sent: donderdag 7 februari 2013 16:11 To: MediaWiki for enterprises Subject: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) A discussion on wikitech-l you might find interesting. Mariya ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jeroen De Dauw <jeroendedauw(a)gmail.com> Date: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Hey, For corporate adoption, the main thing MediaWiki needs is not some

...

Agree, I also think this is the main issue, and know other people active with MW outside WMF think the same. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation.

Yury Katkov

2:55 a.m.

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Verhoeven, Peter <peter.verhoeven(a)oce.com> wrote:

...

Hi, In our Wiki roadmap we are going to move away from Mediawike. Most important feature missing is compartment authorization and searching in scopes.

About search: the situation is getting better in Semantic MediaWiki world: teams are developing extensions that enable faceted search, where you can refine your search with categories and properties. What is compartment authorization, I tried to google it but don't understand that yet.

...

Also too much IT resources are needed for upgrades. The status of extensions and the compatibility with different versions is unclear and a lot of things do not work smoothly with the Windows platform.

The compatibility and stability of the extensions is the thing that can can change for good this year, I hope. Do you create bugreports about not working features on Windows? Windows is definitely an exotic platform for any php software but I remember that Ontoprise company specialised on MediaWiki-based software that was run exactly on Windows.

...

Regards, Peter Verhoeven From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-enterprise-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mariya Nedelcheva Miteva Sent: donderdag 7 februari 2013 16:11 To: MediaWiki for enterprises Subject: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) A discussion on wikitech-l you might find interesting. Mariya ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jeroen De Dauw <jeroendedauw(a)gmail.com> Date: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Hey, For corporate adoption, the main thing MediaWiki needs is not some

Verhoeven, Peter

3:52 a.m.

New subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core))

Hi, Compartment authorization means that some content is only accessible by a specific group of authorized employees. In the Windows world ADS Groups are used for this. Also see http://www.gilyehuda.com/2009/09/25/mediawiki-limits-e20/ why currently Mediawiki is not the best solution for enterprises. A former colleague of me has reported a bug related to FCK Editor in 2008, but a fix was never find (http://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/2586). BTW: We were successful using Mediawiki for describing ways of work in departments and disciplines. But we now also see employees moving towards SharePoint and request for better integration of the Wiki platform with SharePoint. So if you asked me the top of features for using Mediawiki in the enterprise: - Compartment authorization (article, category, namespace, wiki). - Support for search scopes. - SharePoint integration. - Support for easy setup of new Wiki's (like you create a site in SharePoint). - Easy upgrade to newer versions. Regards Peter Verhoeven

...

-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-enterprise-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yury Katkov Sent: vrijdag 8 februari 2013 08:55 To: MediaWiki for enterprises Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Verhoeven, Peter <peter.verhoeven(a)oce.com> wrote:

Hi, In our Wiki roadmap we are going to move away from Mediawike. Most important feature missing is compartment authorization and

searching in

scopes.

Also too much IT resources are needed for upgrades. The status of extensions and the compatibility with different

versions is

unclear and a lot of things do not work smoothly with the Windows

platform. The compatibility and stability of the extensions is the thing that can can change for good this year, I hope. Do you create bugreports about not working features on Windows? Windows is definitely an exotic platform for any php software but I remember that Ontoprise company specialised on MediaWiki-based software that was run exactly on Windows.

Regards, Peter Verhoeven From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-enterprise-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf

Mariya Nedelcheva Miteva Sent: donderdag 7 februari 2013 16:11 To: MediaWiki for enterprises Subject: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to

Confluence

(was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into

core))

organisation

> with people who will care if corporate users are screwed over by a > change. It needs community management, so that the features needed

> corporate users will be discoverable and well-maintained, rather

than

> developed privately, over and over. And it needs the smallest nudge

promotion, on top of what Wikipedia fans are doing for it. Say, a nice-looking website aimed at this user base. This is not something WMF is interested in doing, that has been made extremely clear in the last year.

Agree, I also think this is the main issue, and know other people

active

with MW outside WMF think the same. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the

addressee

and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or

otherwise

exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the

intended

recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to

the

intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

If you

have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for

your

co-operation. _______________________________________________ Mediawiki-enterprise mailing list Mediawiki-enterprise(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-enterprise

_______________________________________________ Mediawiki-enterprise mailing list Mediawiki-enterprise(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-enterprise

This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation.

planetenxin

4:21 a.m.

New subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core))

Am 08.02.2013 09:52, schrieb Verhoeven, Peter:

...

So if you asked me the top of features for using Mediawiki in the enterprise: - Compartment authorization (article, category, namespace, wiki). - Support for search scopes. - SharePoint integration. - Support for easy setup of new Wiki's (like you create a site in SharePoint). - Easy upgrade to newer versions. Regards Peter Verhoeven

Verhoeven, Peter

4:44 a.m.

New subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core))

Hi, It are all not OOTB features / extensions of Mediawiki and we do not want private customization as already mentioned earlier in this discussion. Peter Verhoeven T +31 (0)77 359 2706

...

-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-enterprise-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of planetenxin Sent: vrijdag 8 februari 2013 10:22 To: mediawiki-enterprise(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Comparisons to Confluence (was Minimalist MediaWiki? (was Re: Merge Vector extension into core)) Am 08.02.2013 09:52, schrieb Verhoeven, Peter:

So if you asked me the top of features for using Mediawiki in the

enterprise:

- Compartment authorization (article, category, namespace, wiki). - Support for search scopes. - SharePoint integration. - Support for easy setup of new Wiki's (like you create a site in

SharePoint).

- Easy upgrade to newer versions. Regards Peter Verhoeven

Hi Peter, did you have professional support for your MediaWiki? All topics you have mentioned are usual in enterprise environments and all of your topics could be solved, including integration of MW in SharePoint. There are numerous companies and individuals providing professional support for MediaWiki. See here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Third- party_MediaWiki_users_discussion/Contacted_by_Mitevam#Companies_that_pr ovides_solutions_and_support_for_MediaWiki /Alexander Gesinn Managing Director gesinn.it -- ________________________________________________ semantic::apps by gesinn.it Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki. http://semantic-apps.com _______________________________________________ Mediawiki-enterprise mailing list Mediawiki-enterprise(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-enterprise

Mark A. Hershberger

9:13 a.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

On Fri 08 Feb 2013 04:44:46 AM EST, Verhoeven, Peter wrote:

...

It are all not OOTB features / extensions of Mediawiki and we do not want private customization as already mentioned earlier in this discussion.

I certainly understand the desire for something that is standard. It sounds like SMW is making progress on search scopes and I've been working on fixing Windows bugs as I find them. And making upgrades easier is something I hope to help make happen. A couple of the other items you mentioned -- Sharepoint integration and Compartment authorization -- weren't even on the map. Many of us have never heard of "Compartment authorization" until you mentioned it. The question, then, is how much do these that two items really affect enterprise uptake? Is there a need outside of your organisation? -- http://hexmode.com/ There is no path to peace. Peace is the path. -- Mahatma Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

Yaron Koren

11:53 a.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

Hi Mark, A couple of the other items you mentioned -- Sharepoint integration and

...

Compartment authorization -- weren't even on the map. Many of us have never heard of "Compartment authorization" until you mentioned it.

Well, that depends on the map you're using. :) I've certainly heard people asking about SharePoint integration with MediaWiki. It's not something that could be handled by core MediaWiki - it would have to be done with an extension, and/or some sort of external connector. Personally, though, I don't think it's worth it, just because I think SharePoint sucks. As for "compartment authorization", that seems to be just a fancy term for controlling read-access. -Yaron -- WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com

Mark A. Hershberger

12:37 p.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

On Fri 08 Feb 2013 11:53:44 AM EST, Yaron Koren wrote:

...

Well, that depends on the map you're using. :)

Sure. And Sharepoint integration was in the "Here be dragons!" area of my map. But it is something many enterprise users are interested in. Many of use who have our roots in the free software world will say "You can fix it!" but the enterprise mindset that we're talking about here just wants to have a nice package that takes care of it already. Which is why I asked "How much do these that two items really affect enterprise uptake?" If a client of mine wanted SharePoint integration and was willing to pay to have it developed, they'd probably get it. But that leaves us with a chicken and egg problem. -- http://hexmode.com/ There is no path to peace. Peace is the path. -- Mahatma Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

Markus Glaser

12:46 p.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

Hi all, sorry for jumping on this thread so late, I was kept rather busy with WCA stuff this week... There's a MediaWiki extension called BlueSpice [1] which I (and others) developed. It's maintained by my company, Hallo Welt!, and it's free as in GPL (available on SourceForge with more than 10000 downloads as of now). This extension is the outcome of 50+ MediaWiki installations in enterprise environments and I think a lot of issues discussed on this thread are covered: WYSIWYG editor, read permissions / compartment, search with facets, just to name a few. Half of our installations run on Windows Servers in production. There's also a demo [2], unfortunately only in German.

...

The question, then, is how much do these that two items really affect enterprise uptake? Is there a need outside of your organisation?

The top show stoppers we face when it comes to MediaWiki vs. Sharepoint or Confluence are: * lack of guarantee / warranty (which can be overcome by hiring a professional) * lack of read permissions on certain areas ("Compartment"?) * missing WYSIWYG * integration issues (Active Directory, Windows environments) I know that all of these issues are addressed in one or the other MediaWiki extension, but obviously, in public perception, these are not known widely enough. So I am totally happy about the discussion on extension visibility that was lead earlier on this list. On several occasions, we were asked about a bridge to SharePoint and we did develop a showcase (for MW 1.15...). We never brought it to production, though, as our customers seemed not to need it desperately enough to pay for the final finish. [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:BlueSpice [2] http://demo.blue-spice.org Best, Markus

Jack D. Pond

1:05 p.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

I'm not really sure what "Compartment Authorization" means, but you can do some very sophisticated and (from what I can tell) pretty secure with an extensive set of Access Control abilities for Enterprise Collaboration by using Namespaces (for a "compartment"?) with MediaWiki using a combination of: - http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Lockdown - Page lockdowns http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NSFileRepo - Restricts Access to Images, files, etc. This approach has a weakness because there is no explicit inheritance. A user adding a new page or file needs to explicitly specify the NameSpace in order for that information to be restricted. Examples: If you assigned a NameSpace to a Compartment, (ex. OnlyMe), the restricted page would be something like: [[OnlyMe:TestPage]] And the files/images would be [[Image: OnlyMe:Testfile.txt]] Of course, any other extensions could bypass them if they do not check if the content to be searched or presented is not validated using the following hooks (as appropriate). The core does. getUserPermissionsErrors MediaWikiPerformAction SearchableNamespaces SearchGetNearMatchComplete SearchEngineReplacePrefixesComplete ImgAuthBeforeStream userCan

...

-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki- enterprise-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark A. Hershberger Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 9:14 AM To: MediaWiki for enterprises Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-enterprise] Comparisons to Confluence On Fri 08 Feb 2013 04:44:46 AM EST, Verhoeven, Peter wrote:

It are all not OOTB features / extensions of Mediawiki and we do not want private customization as already mentioned earlier in this discussion.

Derric Atzrott

4:27 p.m.

New subject: Comparisons to Confluence

...

We make use of Page Security [0] to handle this issue. I'm honestly not sure how secure it is since I've never checked, but it is good enough to keep the lay user from seeing things, which is really all we needed in our case. I ported it to 1.18.1 when we began to use it. There is a link to the port on the talk page.

...

This approach has a weakness because there is no explicit inheritance. A user adding a new page or file needs to explicitly specify the NameSpace in order for that information to be restricted.

For us what they have to do is add the page to a certain category, for example if the page is to only be viewable by the HR department, they might add [[Category:HR]] to the page. So while the inheritance issue is still a problem at the very least it organizes the content as well. Hopefully this helps someone, Derric Atzrott Computer Specialist Alizee Pathology

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participants (9)

Derric Atzrott
Jack D. Pond
Mariya Nedelcheva Miteva
Mark A. Hershberger
Markus Glaser
planetenxin
Verhoeven, Peter
Yaron Koren
Yury Katkov