Are there any objections on this? MF-W was the only person who objected when I brought this up in December (due to size of the project, which has since grown).
Steven
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Today's Topics:
1. Noongar Wikipedia (Steven White)
2. Approval for Pashto Wikivoyage (Satdeep Gill)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 13:52:16 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Noongar Wikipedia
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User:OosWesThoesBes, who is a sysop and active contributor on Incubator and Multilingual Wikisource, has been collaborating with User:Gnangarra of the Noongar project. They make the following comment and suggestion:
The main issue here seems to lie in two things: 1. the desire to spread/record knowledge of the local culture; 2. the inability of many tribal people (no offense meant, I'm not from Australia, nor am I a native English speaker, so please do correct my terminology [I'd use "aboriginal"–SJW]) to speak or understand the Nyungar language fluently. A simple solution to this would be the creation of a separate namespace in which English translations are provided, while the pages themselves are written in Nyungar. This will keep the main namespace free of English, while the knowledge to the culture is still available to those interested, who are not able to understand or have difficulty understanding the language itself. This way, the Wikipedia can be used both to spread the knowledge of the Nyungar culture, as well as providing a base for a broad encyclopedia written in the Nyungar language about all subjects.
In response to a question from MF-Warburg, Gnangarra promises that all articles will be completely written in Nyungar as well as in English. And OosWesThoesBes has committed to help with the implementation.
It seems to me that this solution would satisfy LangCom's requirement that the project be written in Nyungar, as well as the community's desire that there also be English available to support wider dissemination of information.
I'd request the Committee's comments/opinions on this idea.
Steven
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Wikiversity Sinhala<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Sinh…>: No content was ever created. Rejecting as stale.
Wikiversity Tamil<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Tamil>: The requester hasn't been active on meta since 2013, but is occasionally active at Tamil Wikipedia. I will ask if he plans to do anything with this. There was one page (effectively, a main page) created two years earlier than this request, but nothing has been done since. Unless creator tells me otherwise, I intend to reject as stale.
Wikiversity Zazaki<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Zaza…> (diq): I suppose it's a fair question to ask why diq is able to co-opt the name Zazaki, which more correctly applies to the macrolanguage as a whole (at least according to ISO 639-3). The Wikipedia in this language calls itself Zazaki (or Zaza), too. ISO, on the other hand, uses "Dimli" for langcode diq. Still, there are 94 pages in this test, so it is eligible. You can tell me at a future date if you want to try to change the working name the projects use.
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OK. The only comment from a committee member on Syriac was from Gerard, who felt that the Ancient Greek case was unique. So at this point Syriac is not eligible, and I will reject it—but allow the test project to remain open at Incubator, where the rules are less strict.
Steven
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Phake Nick: There are a couple of similar questions that I’ve been waiting for a time to formulate and then propose, and I think it’s getting to be time to do so. That having been said:
* Do remember that we have a multilingual Wikisource that can serve as the repository for source documents in languages that would not be eligible for projects otherwise. The same is not true for Wikiquote.
* The purpose of Wikiquote (or at least a purpose) is to provide a repository for people looking for quotes to be able to find them. That means that it makes little sense to have WQ projects in languages that people don’t really use.
* LangCom seems a little more amenable to Wikipedia projects in languages that are not used as L1 any more, provided there are still communities available to support them, and provided there is a body of written material to serve as a basis for content. I don’t think LangCom is willing to stretch that point on Wikinews or Wikivoyage at all. Question will be more whether Wikiquote could be like Wikipedia in that regard, not whether it would go as far as being like Wikisource.
* Finally, remember that quotes can be translated and used in any number of WQ projects.
It seems to me that if a seriously historical language has a few quotes that someone wants to preserve natively, then the documents containing those quotes could well be put in Wikisource, and that would be a reasonable approach.
Steven
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 09 May 2018 18:14:19 +0000
From: Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Back to 2012: Wikiquote and Wikivoyage requests
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I think a larger question is that should wikiquote be given same exempt to
the condition of whether the language is living when it come to eligibility
like wikisource?
在 2018年5月9日週三 13:25，Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> 寫道：
> Hoi,
> A comparison with Ancient Greek does not serve as a reason for
> consistency. It was only accepted because of it being actually used in
> schools.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 8 May 2018 at 18:37, Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> These three are the only pending requests for Wikiquote and Wikivoyage
>> projects dating back to 2012.
>>
>>
>> Wikiquote Pashto
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>
>> (ps): Eligible.
>>
>> Wikivoyage Malayam
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>
>> (ml): Eligible.
>>
>>
>> Wikiquote Syriac
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>
>> (syc): Syriac, of course, is a historic language. Frankly, there are
>> arguments to be made on either side of this one.
>>
>>
>> *Leaning towards "eligible":*
>>
>> - There is a Wikipedia in this language already. Frequently,
>> languages with Wikipedias are allowed to expand into other projects.
>> - In 2010 Milos marked a Wikiquote test in Ancient Greek as
>> "eligible". Possibly this case isn't much different, except that more
>> people know Ancient Greek than know Classical Syriac. (But see below.)
>>
>> *Leaning towards "reject" (outright):*
>>
>> - The written policy on historical languages reads, "The proposal has
>> a sufficient number of living native speakers to form a viable community
>> and audience." I have the impression that at this point, LangCom is
>> starting to loosen up a little about whether the speakers are "native"
>> speakers, as long as there are enough (reasonably) fluent speakers to form
>> a viable community. But that "loosening" seems to apply mostly to
>> Wikipedias *(e.g., *Coptic), and certainly not to Wikinews or
>> Wikivoyage. I'm not sure about Wikiquote, as Ancient Greek is the only
>> example to look to. And in any case, I'm not sure that Classical Syriac
>> really has enough speakers to create a community; in that, the case
>> potentially differs from Ancient Greek.
>>
>> *What about "reject" (stale)?*
>>
>> - There are about 14 pages in the test; all (except maybe one) were
>> created in the first three months of its existence. Since then, the test
>> has been pretty dormant. So far, tests that I have closed as stale have had
>> no more than five pages created, and those generally within the same month
>> of starting the test project. So while this test has been fairly dormant,
>> it's been more active than that.
>>
>>
>> I'd appreciate some opinions on what to do here. I will say straight out
>> that even if the decision is to reject, I see no reason that the test can't
>> stay on Incubator, as it meets the less stringent requirements for a test
>> to be hosted on Incubator. So you're deciding between
>>
>>
>> - Rejecting outright, but test remains on Incubator, probably
>> permanently
>> - Marking eligible (consistent with what was done with Ancient Greek)
>>
>>
>> Steven
>>
>> Sent from Outlook <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
>>
This proposal<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_L…> has been open for a month. The original proposer makes the case that nobody in China uses this now, that all Chinese can read the regular Chinese Wikipedia, and that this and other Chinese Wikipedia projects (Cantonese, Wu, Min-Nan, and others) should all be deleted in favor of zhwiki.
* The few who have supported the idea did so on the technical grounds that this would make it easier to move the wiki, currently at zh-classical.wikipedia.org, to the updated langcode lzh.wikipedia.org. I replied on this point that those were not valid grounds, and that if we were going to undertake a technical close of this wiki to move it, we’d simply do it, and it wouldn’t be grounds for discussion or voting.
Aside from original proposer (and leaving out the technical argument above), nobody commenting supports the idea.
* This wiki is, in fact, reasonably active and has plenty of content.
* While our project currently uses a “special” langcode, the language does have a valid ISO 639-3 code (lzh).
* Many have made the case on this discussion page that the written language is different from written modern Chinese.
And, if nothing else, this wiki dates to 2006, so predates the current policy and is grandfathered.
I am proposing to reject the proposal on the grounds that:
* Per current Closing projects policy<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closing_projects_policy#Proposing>, “Not meeting the current Language proposal policy [linked there] is not a valid reason” (emphasis in original)
* As far as anyone has said, the wiki is reasonably active, has content, and is not loaded with spam and vandalism. In short, there are no good reasons inherent to the project to close it.
I will do this in seven days from now unless there are objections.
Steven
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They wish to have the subdomain created. So the project is approved. MF-W, will you please get the ball rolling? Thanks.
Steven
Sent from my iPad
> On May 8, 2018, at 8:01 AM, "langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> Re: Proposed Approval of Piedmontese Wikisource
These three are the only pending requests for Wikiquote and Wikivoyage projects dating back to 2012.
Wikiquote Pashto<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiquote_Pashto> (ps): Eligible.
Wikivoyage Malayam<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikivoyage_Malay…> (ml): Eligible.
Wikiquote Syriac<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiquote_Syriac> (syc): Syriac, of course, is a historic language. Frankly, there are arguments to be made on either side of this one.
Leaning towards "eligible":
* There is a Wikipedia in this language already. Frequently, languages with Wikipedias are allowed to expand into other projects.
* In 2010 Milos marked a Wikiquote test in Ancient Greek as "eligible". Possibly this case isn't much different, except that more people know Ancient Greek than know Classical Syriac. (But see below.)
Leaning towards "reject" (outright):
* The written policy on historical languages reads, "The proposal has a sufficient number of living native speakers to form a viable community and audience." I have the impression that at this point, LangCom is starting to loosen up a little about whether the speakers are "native" speakers, as long as there are enough (reasonably) fluent speakers to form a viable community. But that "loosening" seems to apply mostly to Wikipedias (e.g., Coptic), and certainly not to Wikinews or Wikivoyage. I'm not sure about Wikiquote, as Ancient Greek is the only example to look to. And in any case, I'm not sure that Classical Syriac really has enough speakers to create a community; in that, the case potentially differs from Ancient Greek.
What about "reject" (stale)?
* There are about 14 pages in the test; all (except maybe one) were created in the first three months of its existence. Since then, the test has been pretty dormant. So far, tests that I have closed as stale have had no more than five pages created, and those generally within the same month of starting the test project. So while this test has been fairly dormant, it's been more active than that.
I'd appreciate some opinions on what to do here. I will say straight out that even if the decision is to reject, I see no reason that the test can't stay on Incubator, as it meets the less stringent requirements for a test to be hosted on Incubator. So you're deciding between
* Rejecting outright, but test remains on Incubator, probably permanently
* Marking eligible (consistent with what was done with Ancient Greek)
Steven
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I'm forwarding the following mail from OWTB:
Wikimedia Incubator <wiki(a)wikimedia.org> schrieb am Di., 8. Mai 2018, 01:37:
> Hi. In reaction to your LangCom mail concerning the Piedmontese
> Wikisource, I'd like to react.
>
> As I'm not familiar with the protocol for non-members I send you an email
> so you can always forward it to the mailing list.
>
> As can be read on user talk pages on Oldwikisource, I've been relatively
> involved with this particular project. I have helped them to introduce
> categorization including the remark that it would be easier for exporting
> to a future subdomain. I also made sure several prefixed pages from "Main
> Page/Piemontèis/" were moved to unprefixed pages to make sure they will
> land correctly in the possible future subdomain.
>
> I never heard a voice against an own subdomain and considering that they
> started on the incubator instead of Oldwikisource, I think it's safe to
> assume they will be happy in their subdomain and that that is their
> ultimate goal.
>
> Ofcourse, to be sure it is just one simple talk page message to the main
> contributor :)
>
> Greetings,
> Arjan (Ooswesthoesbes)
>
> --
> This email was sent by Ooswesthoesbes to MF-Warburg by the "Email this
> user" function at Wikimedia Incubator. If you reply to this email, your
> email will be sent directly to the original sender, revealing your email
> address to them.
>
MF-W, that's a fair point. I have queried the contributors on oldwikisource to see what they want.
That said, it's been a week, and other than MF-Warburg's very fair point, it seems that there is consensus to allow approval. So provided the community wants to be spun off into its own project, the project will be approved. If not, then we won't force it on them. (If that happens, I'll both report that here and also make a notation on the request page and at Old Wikisource to that effect. As long as the test stays active on Old Wikisource, they will have the right to change their minds later on if they wish.)
Steven
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