The community is getting impatient that LangCom is leaving so many items in limbo, especially the Beta Wikiversity proposal. (See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Closing_projects_policy#This_is_not_wo….) That proposal passed its fourth anniversary in the last week! In April, you discussed this question, and seemed on the verge of approving the closure—but then the discussion was stopped, and no action was taken.
There are currently four proposals that have been open for two years or longer, and another two that have been open for over a year. I strongly urge you to take action at least on those, lest the community step in and make its own decisions. As a reminder these are:
* Move Beta Wikiversity to Incubator
* Deletion of Moldovan WIkipedia and Wiktionary (two separate proposals) (already closed and locked)
* Deletion of Marshallese projects (already closed and locked)
* Closure of Limburgish and Bosnian Wikibooks (two proposals)
I'd venture to say that there is no groundswell insisting on the Marshallese, Limburgish or Bosnian proposals, and you could easily close those proposals as "not done" with little fanfare. The others I cannot really comment on.
Steven White (StevenJ81)
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
They are reworking content under a different category name, I think.
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hindi Wikiversity should not be created (MF-Warburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:21:04 +0200
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Hindi Wikiversity should not be created
Message-ID:
<CAJKMOMU=qjqLgY_D619a=GtCUiv6scAqsMrXw4g3FGdsMHY2pQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I have now looked through the Hindi pages on Beta.wikiversity myself. At
first I just wanted to look at a random sample of pages, but then I noticed
that there are only "69 pages (including categories, templates, talk pages,
and redirects)" (cf. catanalysis). I don't know if this number was higher
previously.
However, that is IMHO way too little for a wiki to be approved. I also
don't see any pages that look like courses, which after all, is what
Wikiversity is for.
Therefore I agree with the starting point of this thread, that Hindi
Wikiversity should not be created, and the approval taken back.
2017-07-19 1:09 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>:
> Yes, agreed. Though the question here is different, it is about whether
> the test-project as it currently is is in a state that is appropriate for
> approval.
>
>
> 2017-07-18 12:51 GMT+02:00 Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby(a)gmail.com>:
>
>> (Late reply, sorry.)
>>
>> While I may have doubts about the merits of Wikiversity myself, I don't
>> think it's within the scope of the Language Committee to deny the creation
>> of projects based on those merits. We should only focus on whether the
>> community for the relevant language edition of a project is healthy enough
>> for it to become a separate project, without consideration for the
>> individual committee members' feelings about the project as a whole.
>>
>> 2017-07-04 18:12 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> Yes, that is the politically correct answer. The question asked by
>>> several is what is Wikiversity good for. Is it actually used?
>>> Thanks,
>>> GerardM
>>>
>>> On 4 July 2017 at 18:06, Satdeep Gill <satdeepgill(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do think that the community will improve content as the time
>>>> progresses. The community has been working hard on translation as well.
>>>>
>>>> But I do see some pages which are not written well and contain machine
>>>> translations. Such as
>>>>
>>>> <http://goog_1512637911>
>>>> https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/%E0%A4%90%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8
>>>> B%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B8_%E0%A4%87%E0%
>>>> A4%82%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B0%
>>>> E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%97
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Satdeep Gill
>>>>
>>>> Strategy Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Track_B#SG…>
>>>> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
>>>> Treasurer, Affiliations Committee
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
>>>> Member, Language Committee
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 June 2017 at 01:08, Jay prakash <0freerunning(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Computer_graphics/2013-2014
>>>>> /Page_footer]
>>>>> See Here.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/25/17, Mahir Morshed <mmorshe2(a)illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>> > Well, the part in [brackets] was "the lack of effort to even
>>>>> localize the
>>>>> > comments in the code samples" and I did mention that it was being
>>>>> addressed
>>>>> > slowly. My apologies for failing to provide a direct link to an
>>>>> example.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I also now see that the email address is in fact yours. I am not
>>>>> sure that
>>>>> > there is any precedent elsewhere for such byline templates on other
>>>>> > Wikimedia projects.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Jay prakash <0freerunning(a)gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> You are showing it that you will not see all those links which I
>>>>> have
>>>>> >> cleaned like it [https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/कंप्यूटर
>>>>> >> ग्राफिक्स/2013-14/जीओजीएल-टेम्पलेट].
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On 6/25/17, Mahir Morshed <mmorshe2(a)illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>> >> > To piggyback on what Justin is saying (and also via Phabricator:
>>>>> >> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T168765#3376191):
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I am not a Hindi speaker, but I can at least discern Devanagari
>>>>> text
>>>>> >> > and
>>>>> >> > the English loanwords in it. Justin's first link is to
>>>>> >> > "Category:Intelligence" with subcategory "Artificial
>>>>> intelligence". His
>>>>> >> > second link (Computer Programming/IDE/Visual Basic .NET/...)
>>>>> bears only
>>>>> >> > a
>>>>> >> > link to a Japanese online IDE. His third link (Computer
>>>>> >> > Graphics/2013-2014/"Page Foot", a page footer which is transcluded
>>>>> >> > elsewhere) has an email address prefixed with a link to
>>>>> >> > @Jayprakash12345
>>>>> >> > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/p/Jayprakash12345/>'s
>>>>> >> userpage--maybe it
>>>>> >> > is his own email address?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > The problems of most pages only consisting of source code is
>>>>> indeed
>>>>> >> > inherited from the English Wikiversity courses to which the pages
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> > linked. Nevertheless, from seeing at least [the lack of effort to
>>>>> even
>>>>> >> > localize the comments in the code samples], and perhaps from
>>>>> seeing the
>>>>> >> > lack of something more substantial in the way of content revolving
>>>>> >> > around
>>>>> >> > those code samples, and perhaps more so from Jayprakash12345
>>>>> being the
>>>>> >> only
>>>>> >> > consistent contributor going back at least a month, I must thus
>>>>> agree
>>>>> >> with
>>>>> >> > his assessment that opening hiwikiversity would be a disaster. My
>>>>> >> personal
>>>>> >> > opinion is that other Hindi projects (such as hiwikisource and
>>>>> >> hiwikiquote)
>>>>> >> > could be populated more easily and meaningfully at this point,
>>>>> but I
>>>>> >> would
>>>>> >> > digress to elaborate on that and the whole process of site
>>>>> requests
>>>>> >> > more
>>>>> >> > generally here.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > (Edits since the original comment was made: It appears judging
>>>>> from
>>>>> >> > https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinke
>>>>> d/Category:
>>>>> >> HI
>>>>> >> > that 1) the subcategory "Artificial intelligence" has been
>>>>> deleted and
>>>>> >> > 2)
>>>>> >> > the part in [brackets] above is being addressed slowly.)
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Justin Anthony Knapp
>>>>> >> > <justinkoavf(a)gmail.com
>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> Via Phabricator (https://phabricator.wikimedia
>>>>> .org/T168765#3376166):
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Is this really ready? I don't read Hindi but the main category
>>>>> has 84
>>>>> >> >> subcategories and 25 are empty (many only have subcategories
>>>>> which are
>>>>> >> >> themselves empty, such as https://beta.wikiversity.org/
>>>>> >> >> wiki/Category:इंटेलिजेंस) There are 578 pieces of content, many
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> >> which
>>>>> >> >> are just one or two lines, such as https://beta.wikiversity.org/
>>>>> >> >> wiki/कंप्यूटर_प्रोग्रामिंग/IDE/विजुअल_बेसिक_.नेट/Online/Free or
>>>>> >> >> https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/कंप्यूटर_ग्राफिक्स/2013-20
>>>>> 14/पेज_फ़ुट
>>>>> >> >> which is mostly someone's personal email address. Remove
>>>>> categories
>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> erroneously-categorized userpages and that becomes 490. This
>>>>> includes
>>>>> >> >> almost 100 pages which are part of some Linux code such as
>>>>> >> >> https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/लिनक्स/linux-0.01.tar/boot
>>>>> /boot.s.
>>>>> >> >> Remove *those* and it's 401 which includes purely cosmetic
>>>>> templates
>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> pages like
>>>>> >> >> https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Engineering/box-footer.
>>>>> >> >> The actual amount of content seems like something that one person
>>>>> >> >> could
>>>>> >> >> make over a long weekend. How is this supposed to be a live
>>>>> project?
>>>>> >> This
>>>>> >> >> seems like a misstep.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Creating a new project is a big responsibility and with 500
>>>>> pages in
>>>>> >> five
>>>>> >> >> and a half years? And most of them are either copy-pasted Linux
>>>>> code
>>>>> >> >> or
>>>>> >> >> one
>>>>> >> >> line long? That is not a thriving community. This is a recipe for
>>>>> >> >> disaster.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> --JAK
>>>>> >> >> --
>>>>> >> >> "[Icarus] glances up and is caught, wondrously tunneling into
>>>>> that hot
>>>>> >> >> eye. Who cares that he fell back to the sea?"
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Viva Western Sahara, viva West Papua
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> Langcom mailing list
>>>>> >> >> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > --
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Langcom mailing list
>>>>> >> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Yours sincerely,
>>>>> > Mahir Morshed
>>>>> > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>>>>> > B.S. Computer Engineering, May 2019
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Langcom mailing list
>>>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Langcom mailing list
>>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mvh
>> Jon Harald Søby
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Langcom mailing list
>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>
>>
>
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Hi all,
I think Ingush Wikipedia can be approved, from the activity viewpoint. The
translation of the most-used messages is complete (<
http://tools.wmflabs.org/robin/?tool=codelookup&code=inh>) and there has
been a quite high activity since almost ten months now <
https://tools.wmflabs.org/meta/catanalysis/index.php?cat=0&title=Wp/inh&wik…
>.
Now we would of course need verificiation of the content. Searching the
archives, I found a mail from Amir from 10 November 2011. Back then, a
linguist had said the language in the test-wiki was not quite what would be
expected from literary Ingush. However, the current editors are all
different from the ones that were active five years ago.
Amir, could you check with that linguist or someone else from the Ingush
State University again about the quality of the content?
Best regards, MF-W
We have a "charter" on our Meta page. It's partially outdated. I think it
would be good to have a review of it, for which I created <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee/Charter>. My idea was
that it would be the best to have one "summary" of it, to put on our Meta
page, informing people about our work, and one version on a subpage which
lists all the tasks and competences we have. Edits welcome.
One issue: voting.
== Voting ==
This is also proposal, so read it and comment if you don't agree or
you want any addition.
1) No voting
1.1) According to the Closing projects policy [1], particular member
of the committee analyzes discussion and, if decides that the project
should be closed, sends the request to WMF Board.
1.2) Clear-cut situations for making a language eligible for Wikimedia
projects: the language has a valid ISO 639-3 code, there are no
significant issues in relation to the language itself, the population
of speakers is significant, request made by a native speaker. In this
case, any committee member can mark language / project eligible.
1.3) Approval without obvious formal requirements. No project will be
approved without them.
2) Simple majority (of those who expressed opinion)
2.1) Eligibility of a language with a valid ISO 639-3 code, but
without significant population of native speakers. (Note: this covers
ancient, constructed, reviving and languages with small number of
speakers.)
2.2) Eligibility of a language without a valid ISO 639-3 code, but
valid BCP 47 code. (Note: this covers Ecuadorian Quechua.)
2.3) Eligibility of a language with significant collision between
prescriptive and descriptive information. (Note: this covers
"macrolangauges".)
2.4) Project approval if not 1.3.
3) 2/3 majority (of those who expressed opinion)
3.1) Any change of the rules, including the committee's role in
possible changes of the Language proposal policy [2] and Closing
projects policy [1].
4) Consensus (of those who expressed opinion)
4.1) A new member of the Language committee should not be opposed by
any of the current committee member.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closing_projects_policy
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
[apologies for the double-post, forgot to add a subject line the first
time!]
[cross-posted to mediawiki-i18n, languages@ and language committee mailing
lists. let me know if there's a better list to use for LanguageConverter
users.]
We're about ready to deploy initial support for LanguageConverter to
Parsoid and Visual Editor (see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T43716 and
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T49411 for background).
A naming issue has come up. In https://www.mediawiki.org/
wiki/Writing_systems/Syntax there are two categories of rules:
"bidirectional" and "unidirectional".
First, before I ask more: if you are a user of LanguageConverter on your
home wiki, did you know that there was more than one type of rule? And if
so, do you call them "bidirectional"/"unidirectional" or something else?
These names appear in the HTML DOM emitted by Parsoid (see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Specs/HTML/1.5.0#Language_conversion_blocks).
There was concern that "bidir" as a field name would be confusing; in
particular that people would confuse this with RTL/LTR issues or the
Unicode "bidi" algorithm; neither of which are related at all.
As a user of LanguageConverter, do you find this naming confusing? If
Visual Editor described these types of rules with a different name (say,
"symmetric"/"asymmetric") would that be a help or harm or neither?
The history of the "bidirectional" name in the PHP code appears to date
back to 2008 as far as I can tell ( https://github.com/wikimedia/
mediawiki/commit/69dbeb97f15b65dd5773852d76c3bc93caefc862 ) but they
haven't been strongly exposed in the UI AFAIK. Perhaps they are present in
the UI for the noteTA gadget ( https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/
MediaWiki:Gadget-noteTA.js )?
At any rate, I'm be interested in any thoughts or comments from folks who
use LanguageConverter regularly.
--scott
--
(http://cscott.net)
[crpss-posted to mediawiki-i18n, languages@ and language committee mailing
lists. let me know if there's a better list to use for LanguageConverter
users.]
We're about ready to deploy initial support for LanguageConverter to
Parsoid and Visual Editor (see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T43716 and
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T49411 for background).
A naming issue has come up. In
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Writing_systems/Syntax there are two
categories of rules: "bidirectional" and "unidirectional".
First, before I ask more: if you are a user of LanguageConverter on your
home wiki, did you know that there was more than one type of rule? And if
so, do you call them "bidirectional"/"unidirectional" or something else?
These names appear in the HTML DOM emitted by Parsoid (see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Specs/HTML/1.5.0#Language_conversion_blocks).
There was concern that "bidir" as a field name would be confusing; in
particular that people would confuse this with RTL/LTR issues or the
Unicode "bidi" algorithm; neither of which are related at all.
As a user of LanguageConverter, do you find this naming confusing? If
Visual Editor described these types of rules with a different name (say,
"symmetric"/"asymmetric") would that be a help or harm or neither?
The history of the "bidirectional" name in the PHP code appears to date
back to 2008 as far as I can tell (
https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/commit/69dbeb97f15b65dd5773852d76c3b…
) but they haven't been strongly exposed in the UI AFAIK. Perhaps they are
present in the UI for the noteTA gadget (
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-noteTA.js )?
At any rate, I'm be interested in any thoughts or comments from folks who
use LanguageConverter regularly.
--scott
--
(http://cscott.net)
Gerard, I think avoiding macrolanguage projects "as much as possible" may be overstating the situation a bit. After all, frequently it's a pretty close thing whether the current coding—macrolanguage plus daughter languages—or treating the whole thing as language plus daughter dialects—is more accurate. Obviously, we are not going to second-guess the whole ISO 639 infrastructure. But if the daughter languages of a macrolanguage community are highly mutually intelligible, and if the respective language communities would prefer to see everything grouped into a single langcode, I don't see why we wouldn't want to accommodate that.
Similarly, if most branches of a macrolanguage are dead, and the community of the remaining branch is willing to accept the dead branches within the project, I don't see why we wouldn't want to accommodate that, especially if the macrolanguage identification is far more obvious to the world than the daughter-language identification. (I think here of Yiddish. Obviously, that example is technically moot, since Yiddish projects have existed long before the current policy. But most Yiddish today is de facto Eastern Yiddish. There is no point in calling those projects "Eastern Yiddish" instead of "Yiddish"; that would just be confusing to most people, and to the extent anyone would create content in Western Yiddish, I'm sure there would be no problem in placing that content in the "Yiddish" projects.)
Steven White (StevenJ81)
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>