Hi, this is Lena, Germany. I'm one of those women Wikimedia would like to encourage (I'm interested, but I haven't edited much more than a few typing errors anonymously). Like Béria, I don't think male words will push people out of Wikipedia - that is, they won't push out the women that are already in. But I do think that female words could encourage some of the women who are still hesitating and unsure. It says: "Yes, we're talking to you!" I don't feel unwanted if someone doesn't use the female words. But I don't feel wanted either. I someone does use female words, it feels like it's more directed to me. (I don't want it to work like that, by the way. But unfortunately, it does work like this for me.) all best, Lena On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Béria Lima <beria.lima(a)wikimedia.pt> wrote:

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 3:09 PM, KIZU Naoko <aphaia(a)gmail.com> wrote: I do believe this is your observation, but I am German, and I am female, and I would appreciate it if I was not addressed as "Benutzer". Strangely, I sometimes call myself "Benutzer" without noticing it, but if someone addresses me as "Benutzerin" (female), it feels like it's more directed to me. So it might be that the women you observed are just like me. Also, it might me that they want to avoid anyone knowing their gender for fear of harassment, ad hominem argument etc. So... I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users) That might or might not be true, but right now Wikipedia is addressing me as a male although my gender/sex is not a matter. And I'm pretty sure this also is a sort of discrimination from a feminist point of view. ;) I strongly support Deboras suggestions. In many cases there are gender neutral words available that could be used. all best, Lena

On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... <lenarohrbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: Wow. So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")? That is awful. In marketing, depth of attachment/affiliation/identification to a product is often gauged by asking people if they feel like the product "is for people like you." The corollary of that is that marketers try to increase users' sense of attachment/affiliation/identification, by persuading them the product is in fact "for them." We are doing the opposite. Thanks Erik for first raising the issue, and Lena for providing a key piece of information that is important and new (at least to me). Thanks, Sue

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner <sgardner(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Hmm. It is a bit more complicated that that. When you translate it into English, "account for male users" sounds terrible, but in French (or German, for that matter) having to sign up for a "Compte d'utilisateur" or a "Benutzerkonto" does not sound that bad, at least not to me. Maybe it's because I'm used to it, but as Naoko pointed out, the "plural" as well as the "neutral" tends to take a masculine form in the grammar, so I find it's ok on that level, becasue "utilisateur" at this stage is rather a neutral thing. However, the fact that pages display "Benutzer:Delphine" or "Utilisateur:Delphine" is, in my opinion, more problematic. As a matter of fact, I've had "utilisatrice:notafish" displayed on my fr.wp page for ever, although the link is still gendered: "http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Notafish". :D I think Debora has a point, there are lots of things that could be done to avoid the gender in some hard coded things, without being detrimental to the comprehension. Giving the choice between "utilisateur" or "utilisateur" might be an option. Next I see though, is people refusing to choose one or the other (a legitimate wish, imho), where we'd probably get stuck :) It is in the end a very tricky subject, in France, people have been fighting for a long time to impose female versions of words that didn't have one, such as "professeure", or "auteure". I personally find these words ugly, but then, I'm rather conservative when it comes to language :) As for the The Screen Actors Guild example, I could never ever imagine having the French give up the word "actrice", or it even suggesting that an actrice is anything less than an actor. Different countries, different gendered cultures... Delphine -- @notafish NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Thomas Koenig <fossa(a)gmx.li> wrote: Yeah, that's what I thought. Compte d'utilisatrice would sound weird, although it would be correct. Heh, have you then never been addressed as a "Benutzerin"? ;) "notafish" is gender neutral enough that "utilisatrice" changes the whole perspective when appended to the username. I agree that this may not be the most important issue, but I also believe that all issues that can be tackled should be tackled. And this is one which might prove quie easy to tackle, actually. Delphine -- @notafish NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org

Hello Lena, hello all, On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 15:28:13 +0100, Lena ... <lenarohrbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: Call me a male chauvinist, but on the question of Karl Marx vs. Judith Butler, I still go with good old Marx: "Das Sein bestimmt das Bewusstsein" (I translate that into: "the material circumstances tend to influence the ideology, rather than the other way around" (p>.5)). But, then again, I certainly would give it a try. Which brings me to a rule on the German-speaking Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Namenskonventionen#M.C3.A4nnliche_un… A bunch of male geeks has constructed a "consensus" there, that the, admittedly actively feminist, but nevertheless quite usual, form with a capital "I" is to be banned from the German Wikipedia. Another male, Alexis de Tocqueville, would call such a rule "tyranny of the majority". Thomas/fossa

Am 07.02.2011 15:28, schrieb Lena ...: to say Some possibilities to solve the problem might be to -find neutral words whenever this is possible so that you don't need any gender markers anymore - to not use gendered prefixes or markers whenever the sense of a multi sense word (like "account") is made clear by the context - to directly adress the person so that direct speech is employed. like (instead of user account) only "account" and afterwards the login field ; or "your account" in German, the possibilities proposed above would come up to sth like Nutzungskonto or Benutzungskonto, only "Konto" or "Dein Konto/Ihr Konto" neither Yes, changing a few words may have a big impact, but that does not solve at all the beyond structures that ally language, socialisation and society. Changing some or even a lot of words is not equal to changing the grammar, so - yes, changing some words may have an impact, but as long as the language determining grammar structures stay unchanged, the effects of changing some words will probably stay limited. That does not mean at all that we shouldn't change words! - its just to underline that, at the end, we also need to analyze and to trying to change the underlaying structures. Best, Manu

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <dancase(a)frontiernet.net> wrote: +1 Sam/Sj

Each wiki could fix this without editing MediaWiki code. Someone could create a bot that have access to the gender information of each user. Then to all the female users the bot moves the content from User_male_word:Somewoman to User_woman_word:Somewoman (the same with the talk page) Then makes a redirect to the new userpage, and change the signature of the user in "My Preferences" so it links to User_woman_word from now on. On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Lena ... <lenarohrbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: