That’s really cool. (Just don’t read the comments. Awful misogyny contained therein. Is there any way we can get that crap removed?) -- Tom Morris <http://tommorris.org/> ----- Original message ----- From: Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt; To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects &lt;gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Subject: [Gendergap] Adrienne Wadewitz featured in short piece about Gendergap on the English Wikipedia Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 12:54:55 +0200 In case you missed it, the Signpost this week gives a link to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP8QCG7keQw _________________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Never read the comments. Never . On Jul 8, 2014 6:50 PM, "Keilana" &lt;keilanawiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Abusive comments are a gender thing. Stories about or by women are more likely to get abusive comments, in public and private, based solely on the gender of the subject or the author. -VAL On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Emily Monroe &lt;emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: are -- Valerie Aurora Executive Director You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture! Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/ _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

That is, as a result of comments like these, we end up having a discussion about something other than women's participation in Wikimedia projects. When this happens frequently, people end up feeling discouraged from bringing up topics like "There is a lot of misogyny in these comments, is there anything we can do about it?" because they know they are likely to get a response of, "Men/people of color/other oppressed groups have this happen to them too." I know it is not your intention to shut down discussion about women in Wikimedia projects, but that's often the effect of comments like these. -VAL

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Nathan &lt;nawrich(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: know, that's not quite how Wikimedia projects work, and certainly the discussion wasn't referring to commenters on a Wikimedia project. Emily can't be blamed for the discussion going off the gendergap topic. way violate any behavioral norms, you make the list a less welcoming place for that person and others to express themselves. Discussion on this list (and any Wikimedia list) should be open, and civil participants should be engaged and not shushed. If you want to make the argument that anonymous comments disproportionately affect and hurt women, and contribute to gender gaps in many areas of the Internet, please feel free. You'd be right to do so, in my opinion, and you can do that without discouraging Emily from posting her thoughts. Donning my mod hat here for a moment. Asking people to prioritize the topic of the list (addressing the gender gap) is not "shushing", and it is rude of you to dismiss the substance of Val's criticism as that. I will be placing you on moderation if I see anything like that again. There is always a balance to be struck between tangents and focused discussion. I am happy that we've had this thread to remind us all of what our purpose is here - to discuss solutions to the gender gap. -Leigh

There is always a balance to be struck between tangents and focused But perhaps it's the intention that participation on this list be severely constrained, where posters should worry after each post that they'll be "corrected" condescendingly and / or threatened with moderation for disagreeing with another participant. If that's the case, I for one am happy to predict that the gendergap list will never achieve a sliver of its goal (not that it has up til now, of course).

Is there really a type of misogyny that stands alone from other nastiness? In my experience, those who make comments against women also do about other races, ethnics, sexual orientations, classes, etc. The problem with misogyny on Wikipedia is probably more that it is easier to know if another editor is a woman vs. any of the other biases. Aside from having everyone use non-feminine usernames and not divulge personal information, I'm not sure what else would work if this is the case. Janine Emily Monroe wrote: _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Intersectionality is the name for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality ... and this is what it looks like in practice http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/mar/31/laura-bates… Marie ------------------------------ From: emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 22:51:22 -0500 To: gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Adrienne Wadewitz featured in short piece about Gendergap on the English Wikipedia On the other hand, I'd like to point out that the thread topic had already drifted to internet comments when I commented. I'm not sure why I was singled out. And yes, what Janine-- someone who is sexist is also likely to be ablelist (spelling?), racist, classist, etc. From, Emily On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Janine Starykowicz < jrstark(a)barntowire.com&gt; wrote: Is there really a type of misogyny that stands alone from other nastiness? In my experience, those who make comments against women also do about other races, ethnics, sexual orientations, classes, etc. The problem with misogyny on Wikipedia is probably more that it is easier to know if another editor is a woman vs. any of the other biases. Aside from having everyone use non-feminine usernames and not divulge personal information, I'm not sure what else would work if this is the case. Janine Emily Monroe wrote: Actually, I think that's true for all minorities--I know the comment section in the online edition of one of my local newspapers can turn pretty ugly if an article is written about a black guy getting arrested. That's less likely to happen if the suspect is white. From, Emily On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Valerie Aurora &lt;valerie(a)adainitiative.org <mailto:valerie@adainitiative.org>> wrote: Abusive comments are a gender thing. Stories about or by women are more likely to get abusive comments, in public and private, based solely on the gender of the subject or the author. -VAL _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap