I revisited Wikipedia as a newcomer to test the idea and newcomer experiences a year ago and didn't really see that. What I *did* experience was that it was complicated and *that* was discouraging. Part of the issue is that standards are stricter and quality expectations are such that newcomers are less likely to edit appropriately first time round, and therefore some kind of support or inculturation is needed that wasn't in 2004 - 05. Some knowledge is needed before (or as) you "edit this page" whereas before intuition was enough. Our approach to new joiners has not updated to reflect the fact that "just get on with it and find your own way" is no longer appropriate. Specifically, we aim to encourage groups who are not net geeks, and therefore need a different kind of support and induction, and at the same time the project has got more quality conscious and there are more policies affecting what may and may not be done than there were in 2004 - 05. Both of these argue that our means of inducting joiners is hopelessly out of date, and it is this which causes newcomers to leave or be discouraged; what is perceived and sometimes described as a hostile environment is mostly a reflection of the divergence it involves. FT2 I guess there are too many rules now to ignore them all and just jump in. Fred