I understand all the reasons, but I must disagree on a couple of points*.

I think it might have to do with me having a different experience with these topics, but while I do agree that there's absolutely a great advantage of having a women-only space, I also think that it is context-dependent.

I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the gendergap issues in Wikipedia without engaging the men. I can also see how some men really want to help but are unaware of the depth of the problems at hand, so I don't see a problem with dedicating one or two threads to talking about it.

Then again, that's also why I prefer forums over lists; in forums, you can have these types of discussions and people can choose which discussion to go and read and which to ignore and never get into. Much harder to do in an email lists. But I digress.

I think that there could be a huge benefit of a more closed or restricted women-only group and that group can serve as both a place to feel comfortable in (which is VERY important) and a place to brainstorm without fear of argumentative responses.

*But* since this specific mailing list is public, I think we should definitely consider the fact that having men -- and, yes, sometimes spending the energy of explaining (or creating a boilerplate response if these cases start being overwhelming) might actually work for our benefit. I'm thinking about men who don't really "get it" but want to, who try to understand but don't notice that they're stuck in the same issues we're trying to improve.

If we don't handle those situations, we will lose the allies we *have* to have in order to commit realistic changes in the community.

Moriel

* Oh noes, argumentativeness!

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I would say go for it.

Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of invitation!

Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants programs stand ready to hear requests. (:

Pine

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:

Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some of us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if it's against our own interests... sigh...

On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:

....

Hi Phoebe,

Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
LinuxChix in 2002.

A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
time and energy.

The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had
found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists
were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
could talk about Linux.

In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to
providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in
supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is
much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could
be used much more effectively on other projects.

-VAL

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