Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

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Steven Walling

18 Mar 2014 18 Mar '14

12:30 a.m.

Hey all, I'd like some wider opinions, particularly from UX designers, on the following issue: in MediaWiki's login form on desktop, there is a link to a login help page. By default it links to "Help:Logging in", which exists on most Wikimedia wikis but which is likely not existing in a brand new MediaWiki installation. I was comfortable including this link by default because I think it's reasonable to ask wiki administrators to either create a login help page or link to one they like. However, some people find this unacceptable, and would prefer to link by default to the help page on MediaWiki.org. I think this is not so bad, and there are drawbacks to both. However, I think it's better to not link to a help page on a completely different site. Users, especially casual non-technical users, won't understand what "MediaWiki" is or why they were sent there instead of to a help page on their wiki. This seems likely to confuse, and we should put more of the burden on site admins to deal with the link as they see fit. The relevant patch is https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/83220/ and the bug to comment on is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53888 if anyone can chime in. -- Steven Walling, Product Manager https://wikimediafoundation.org/

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Shahyar Ghobadpour

18 Mar 18 Mar

5:59 a.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

It's a weird concept. I don't really like the idea of going to another site entirely, even if it is our own, as it can easily confuse a user as to where they are, exactly. I'd recommend one of the following: 1. Include that page as part of the default mediawiki installation. This would need translation for every language, though. 2. Or link to the MW page in a modal in an iframe, or alternatively in a new tab with an iframe, but an affixed above above the iframe indicating that the user is on another site with (click here) to return to close this tab/window and return to the original wiki. --Shahyar On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Steven Walling <swalling(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:

...

Hey all, I'd like some wider opinions, particularly from UX designers, on the following issue: in MediaWiki's login form on desktop, there is a link to a login help page. By default it links to "Help:Logging in", which exists on most Wikimedia wikis but which is likely not existing in a brand new MediaWiki installation. I was comfortable including this link by default because I think it's reasonable to ask wiki administrators to either create a login help page or link to one they like. However, some people find this unacceptable, and would prefer to link by default to the help page on MediaWiki.org. I think this is not so bad, and there are drawbacks to both. However, I think it's better to not link to a help page on a completely different site. Users, especially casual non-technical users, won't understand what "MediaWiki" is or why they were sent there instead of to a help page on their wiki. This seems likely to confuse, and we should put more of the burden on site admins to deal with the link as they see fit. The relevant patch is https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/83220/ and the bug to comment on is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53888if anyone can chime in. -- Steven Walling, Product Manager https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Jared Zimmerman

11:29 p.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

Since login requirements could vary from site to site it makes sense for non-WMF wikis to require a local link if they carry a help link on their login page. for our own sites, I think the current behavior is fine. That page could use some serious cleanup and simplification though. *Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmerman<https://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Shahyar Ghobadpour < sghobadpour(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

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Hey all, I'd like some wider opinions, particularly from UX designers, on the following issue: in MediaWiki's login form on desktop, there is a link to a login help page. By default it links to "Help:Logging in", which exists on most Wikimedia wikis but which is likely not existing in a brand new MediaWiki installation. I was comfortable including this link by default because I think it's reasonable to ask wiki administrators to either create a login help page or link to one they like. However, some people find this unacceptable, and would prefer to link by default to the help page on MediaWiki.org. I think this is not so bad, and there are drawbacks to both. However, I think it's better to not link to a help page on a completely different site. Users, especially casual non-technical users, won't understand what "MediaWiki" is or why they were sent there instead of to a help page on their wiki. This seems likely to confuse, and we should put more of the burden on site admins to deal with the link as they see fit. The relevant patch is https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/83220/ and the bug to comment on is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53888if anyone can chime in. -- Steven Walling, Product Manager https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

_______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Federico Leva (Nemo)

19 Mar 19 Mar

7:57 a.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

Jared Zimmerman, 19/03/2014 00:29:

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The patch doesn't change anything for existing wikis, existing local (definitions of) links are kept; only the default link changes. Nemo

Quim Gil

21 Mar 21 Mar

5:46 a.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

On Tuesday, March 18, 2014, Jared Zimmerman <jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org');>> wrote:

...

Since login requirements could vary from site to site it makes sense for non-WMF wikis to require a local link if they carry a help link on their login page.

If we talk about 3rd party MediaWikis, I would say that the best option is not to show any "Help with logging in" by default. Your average website requires a "Forgot password?" link, but that's it. If Wikipedia requires a specific help link, ok, but I think it is more the exception than the norm in MediaWiki sites. Even massive services diverge: Facebook doesn't have any Help links near the login (there is a generic "Help" link in the footer, just like we have it in the left column). Not bad for a site where you can't do anything without logging in. Twitter does the same. Wordpress.com and GMail do have a Help link inside the login box, basically supporting the "lost password" use case in no more than five lines. I think we are the only ones inviting confused users (not able to even log in) to read paragraphs of text. After a quick search through a bunch of MediaWikis, I found that Wikia, WikiHow and Gamepedia have custom login interfaces without any specific Help link. translatewiki.net keeps it, but it redirects to their generic help index, a quick fix seen in several MediaWikis. Another quick fix is to point to the corresponding help in en.wiki (a very very dense page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Logging_in ) . Finally, many 3rd party sites still have the red link shining. Even in Wikimedia projects, as soon as you leave the top 10 sites it is easy to find either red links or blue links redirecting to the older "Why register" pages, where users would need to find the specific information about logging in. Only a few find the effort to translate specific login instructions to their own language. -- Quim Gil Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

Steven Walling

5:50 a.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Quim Gil <qgil(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

If we talk about 3rd party MediaWikis, I would say that the best option is not to show any "Help with logging in" by default. Your average website requires a "Forgot password?" link, but that's it.

This is a fair point. On mobile, this is what we're doing now. -- Steven Walling, Product Manager https://wikimediafoundation.org/

Federico Leva (Nemo)

7:14 a.m.

New subject: Comments requested: linking to another wiki's help page on login form

Quim Gil, 21/03/2014 06:46:

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Only a few find the effort to translate specific login instructions to their own language.

That's also because "specific login instructions" mostly do not exist (perhaps they do on a dozen wikis). What diverge are login/username *guidelines*, which are in Project:, not Help: namespace (probably less than a hundred wikis have some real ones). Nemo

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participants (5)

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Jared Zimmerman
Quim Gil
Shahyar Ghobadpour
Steven Walling